BOLO - man.........
BOLO - man.........













12 Complainant, )
vs. ) No. CG S&R 03-0166
13 ) USCG Case No. MISLE
14 )
Defendants. )
15 )




19 Wednesday, August 27, 2003




23 REPORTED BY: Judy M. Skidmore, CSR No. 8479











9 Complainant, )
vs. ) No. CG S&R 03-0166
10 ) USCG Case No. MISLE
11 )
Defendants. )
12 )






Attorney at Law
21 4165 East Thousand Oaks Boulevard
Suite 355
22 Westlake Village, California 91362

23 Also Present:





3 9:25 A.M.

4 * * *


6 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Back on the record.

7 Good morning, everyone.

8 MR. FORGIE: Good morning.

9 ERIC SHINE: Good morning, your Honor.

10 LT. HILL: Good morning.

11 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: A couple of

12 housekeeping matters before we proceed.

13 I would like to just make it crystal clear for

14 the record that my previous orders on the medical

15 examination are extant and were not rescinded. The

16 purpose of this settlement conference and prehearing

17 was to try and work out a framework that would be

18 acceptable to all parties, as to first establishing the

19 extent of the evidence, both nonmedical and medical,

20 for the good cause, if you will, to require the holding

21 of an independent psychological exam.

22 It's my position that Section 1313 only

23 requires, that upon a finding that would be medical

24 psychological condition, if I find that that is an

25 issue, then I may order an independent psychological


1 exam. Pursuant to 1313, I so find.

2 Now, in Mr. Forgie's defense, he was

3 attempting to work out a compromise that would be least

4 objectionable to his client. He knew instantaneously

5 that his client would have a problem with a Navy

6 doctor, and he expressed that during the conference

7 call between the parties.

8 In order to ameliorate that concern, the Coast

9 Guard was agreeable to using another medical provider,

10 and Mr. Forgie gave Lt. Hill some latitude to go look

11 around and explained what he had found. And

12 Mr. Forgie, I guess, felt that that was better than the

13 Navy doctor. And so I left with the clear impression

14 that it was agreed to by the parties. And I put that

15 in my order.

16 Now, under 5 -- USC 554, Mr. Forgie is a

17 party. He represents -- as the lawyer of Mr. Shine, he

18 stands in his step. He represents him. Now, I am

19 going to request that Mr. Shine reconsider his position

20 in this matter regarding the independent medical exam.

21 While I'm not going to rescind my previous orders, I

22 will allow Mr. Shine the last opportunity to agree that

23 if I spend my time and go out and go to the

24 universities and try and pick a psychiatrist to examine

25 him, I will do the due diligence and ask the questions


1 as to conflicts. And Mr. Forgie can give me a list, if

2 he wants to, to make sure, then I would have to have an

3 agreement, albeit maintaining the initial objection to

4 having to do it in the first place; but since I've

5 ordered it, then Mr. Shine would have to inform me that

6 he would agree to it.

7 If he would do that, then I would go out and

8 find an independent, nonbiased, nonconflicted

9 psychiatrist to do the evaluation. And there's one

10 proviso, that the government will put together a

11 package of what they want the psychiatrist to review.

12 Mr. Forgie will put together his package of items that

13 he believes counters what the government has put in.

14 And this would include medicals and statements that

15 they intend to put into evidence. Some items we can

16 discuss as to whether they -- their probative value is

17 outweighed by the prejudicial value of the document.

18 And then Mr. Shine would have the opportunity to, in

19 discussing with the psychiatrist, his disagreement with

20 anything that might be contained therein.

21 So I'm holding that open to you until we go

22 off the record today. And at that time, my offer will

23 lapse.

24 ERIC SHINE: Your Honor --

25 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Yes, sir.


1 ERIC SHINE: -- may I address that?

2 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Yes, you may. You

3 might want to wait a little while and think about it.

4 ERIC SHINE: I heard you, but I would like to

5 address some of my concerns in that regard, as far

6 as -- and this would have been some of the issues for

7 settlement conference or anything else, whether it's on

8 the record or off or ADR.

9 The issue of -- first and foremost, any

10 records would be prejudicial to who I am today, because

11 even as to the regs, it's as to any precedence or

12 whatever, that any type of mental or medical

13 incapability or incompetence has to be exhibited in the

14 proceedings, that even if it's a doctor's report, it

15 has to be timely, not from two years ago, and that it

16 has to show within the hearing that there's an issue,

17 that this is not -- this was not like a one-time

18 because the guy's father died or other events that we

19 all go through, heaped on top of labor racketeering and

20 other incidences or other -- I've seen nothing to that

21 effect.

22 Everything that the Coast Guard has presented

23 is years old at best. Some of it they're trying to

24 bring in is from 1984, my drug and alcohol rehab

25 records that they're trying to get a hold of, for


1 whatever reason, even though I went to a Federal

2 academy, had NIS investigate my background and

3 everything else, now the Coast Guard wants to reopen

4 all that and do a better job of reinvestigating that, I

5 guess. To see a doctor without any records whatsoever

6 and to see who I am and what's going on and my state of

7 mind now is most appropriate, and --

8 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Well, there has to be

9 a frame of reference, and you'll be able to discuss --

10 you'll have copies of everything that was tendered to

11 the psychiatrist, and you'll have an opportunity to

12 discuss those issues, and I would think that two or

13 three two-hour --

14 ERIC SHINE: Wouldn't that be more up to the

15 doctor himself or herself --

16 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I would think so.

17 ERIC SHINE: -- to determine --

18 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I would think so, but

19 we need a floor.

20 ERIC SHINE: But again, it would be the

21 professional floor from the doctor and not anything

22 imposed upon by the court. I'm not imposing it upon,

23 though. The Coast Guard shouldn't -- it should be up

24 to the professional that you're going to bring in on

25 this who's going to say, "This is huge. I can't digest


1 all this, prepare myself and meet with the client and

2 do this in 24 hours," or you know, whatever. It's

3 obviously going to take several weeks.

4 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: No. I'm talking

5 about sessions now.

6 ERIC SHINE: Well, that's what I'm saying.

7 But it may take, you know, four or five, six sessions.

8 I don't know.

9 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I don't, either.

10 ERIC SHINE: Right. But it should be up to

11 the doctor and not the court to say, "You have two

12 three-hour sessions to do your best job possible,

13 because this guys's life is hanging in the balance."

14 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Well, since the

15 government would not be paying for it, I would not be

16 placing a ceiling as to the amount of time that you

17 would have to spend with the psychiatrist. I would be

18 placing a floor. Although I'm not a medical

19 professional, there has to be some --

20 ERIC SHINE: But that could be --

21 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: -- minimum that I

22 would want to see so that the psychiatrist would be

23 able to get a full idea of what's going on here.

24 ERIC SHINE: Granted.

25 But again, even to the matter of timeliness or


1 judicial expediency, I've already agreed, and I have

2 not withdrawn my stipulation that I would not use my

3 license until these matters are concluded. So in --

4 towards the end of justice, which I believe is what

5 anyone -- even in these administrative proceedings,

6 whether it's the Coast Guard or your Honor, should be

7 looking toward, the doctor, whomever it is, should be

8 afforded whatever time is necessary to do an -- I'm not

9 saying -- I'm not trying to stretch anything out. It's

10 up to the doctor.

11 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Mr. Shine, are

12 you -- you're a mariner, I take it, right?

13 ERIC SHINE: Yes, your Honor, obviously.

14 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Have you heard the

15 term "two ships passing in the night"?

16 ERIC SHINE: And your --

17 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: My point is, why are

18 we having that discussion? Why aren't you just saying

19 that you would like to have a full medical exam by

20 whatever doctor would evaluate you?

21 ERIC SHINE: Even as to timeliness --

22 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I'm not getting into

23 timeliness. I'm --

24 ERIC SHINE: You brought it up yourself.

25 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I'm saying there has


1 to be a minimum.

2 ERIC SHINE: A minimum what, though?

3 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: A minimum of -- I

4 would want to see the doctor at least have four to six

5 hours of sessions with you.

6 ERIC SHINE: Oh. You're saying as bare

7 minimum? I thought you were talking about like --

8 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: That's what a floor

9 is.

10 ERIC SHINE: No. I thought you were talking

11 about -- this goes to communication.

12 Even throughout this whole process, is, at

13 some point, I'm hearing you're talking about, boom,

14 getting it back and getting the report here, that

15 there's a bare minimum; no, he only has so many hours

16 for this, and these are the parameters you have to get

17 it back.

18 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Maybe you're not

19 listening to me.

20 ERIC SHINE: I haven't pressed the issues of

21 expediency. I'm trying to defend myself.

22 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I'm not talking about

23 expediency.

24 ERIC SHINE: But you have all up until this

25 point.


1 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I never used that

2 word.

3 ERIC SHINE: I think, in some of the

4 initial -- anyways, I don't want to get into an

5 argument about what has come before to muddy what is

6 going on right now.

7 As to the issues of a medical doctor, I, of

8 course, object strongly that it is a violation of

9 rights and privileges, both privacy act and the

10 therapist/patient privilege. There's been nothing --

11 there's been no case shown as an act of incompetence to

12 say, "He needs to go to the doctor because he has done

13 this."

14 They've brought in excerpts, not full letters

15 or anything, that have been taken out of context. We

16 haven't had a chance to rebut or refute with evidence

17 anything that's been proffered by the Coast Guard,

18 which, in all the case precedence I've seen, is the

19 case, that they're allowed to refute, rebut any

20 evidence presented by the Coast Guard.

21 I think one of the cases -- I don't know if it

22 was Matson where the guy -- they had a doctor's report

23 where he had schizophrenia. They brought the doctor's

24 report in. It was never argued as to how it came in,

25 where it came from. There's a lot of other parole


1 evidence that the individual did not --

2 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Let's get back on

3 track.

4 ERIC SHINE: Well, I'm trying to bring up

5 issues, and you're not allowing me to bring up very --

6 my own concerns about -- like even Dr. Erlich. And

7 I've said, because there's miscommunication by my

8 counsel and the court, no matter what happened, whether

9 the court called him, set up an informal or ex parte

10 motion or movement by the court, I don't know. I have

11 no idea how that all came about. I'm trying to

12 address --

13 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: It's not ex parte

14 when both parties are there.

15 ERIC SHINE: No; because it's supposed to be

16 judicially noticed and calendared, and I'm supposed to

17 have the opportunity to be there.

18 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: That's your position.

19 ERIC SHINE: Right. You called him out of the

20 blue, your Honor.

21 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I disagree. He is a

22 grown individual who's representing you. And he has

23 the right to say, "I've been instructed by my client

24 not to talk to you without him present." He did not do

25 that.


1 ERIC SHINE: And I am telling the court --

2 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: And he never -- and

3 he never objected to having a discussion on certain

4 issues and found it to be very helpful. So --

5 ERIC SHINE: If he stipulated to something,

6 your Honor --

7 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Now he understands

8 that you don't want that to be done. I understand that

9 you don't want that to be done. And I will give you a

10 certain amount of latitude in that regard.

11 ERIC SHINE: And so I'm trying to correct the

12 issue of Dr. Erlich, who I had no -- as far as his

13 stipulation --

14 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: That's -- let's move

15 beyond Erlich. I am trying to suggest to you that I am

16 willing to de novo the whole process if you will give

17 me an affirmation on the record that you will go to the

18 doctor that I pick.

19 ERIC SHINE: Could you explain what -- I

20 know -- what de novo is, because I'm --

21 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Start over.

22 ERIC SHINE: The trial or whatever?

23 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: No. I'm going to

24 start the process of picking a psychiatrist. I'm going

25 to make sure that that psychiatrist is not


1 conflicted --

2 ERIC SHINE: Right.

3 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: -- in any way.

4 And then you are going to agree that you will

5 go to that medical provider for at least six hours of

6 sessions; and if you want to go more, that's fine, and

7 that there would be the government's background

8 information and your background information. And then

9 you'd have the opportunity to talk with the

10 psychiatrist about it and refute whatever the Coast

11 Guard put in there.

12 ERIC SHINE: Granted.

13 And that's, I think, self-evident, to some

14 level or degree, your Honor. What I'm trying to raise

15 are other issues tangential to that, like, okay, well,

16 if the judge finds that -- say he says I'm depressed or

17 I'm angry or I'm upset because the U.S. Coast Guard is

18 retaliating against me, in the middle of me blowing the

19 whistle and these lawsuits or whatever, does that make

20 me mentally incompetent or medically incompetent?

21 I want to define here, so that whatever comes

22 back from the doctor in advance, they can't use, like

23 they've attempted to use, all these -- oh, he said

24 something about Timothy McVeigh in this letter, which

25 is taken well out of context. They haven't introduced


1 the letter. I have a huge problem not knowing in

2 advance what the rules are, which, to some level and

3 degree, the Federal Register Act applies; so that it's

4 out there so that I know --

5 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All right. Let me

6 try and explain as best I can where that -- if you look

7 at 46 CFR 5.13, incompetency is the inability on the

8 part of a person to perform required duties, whether

9 due to professional deficiencies, physical disability,

10 mental incapacity or any combination thereof.

11 ERIC SHINE: So what have I been shown --

12 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Excuse me. Just

13 excuse me. I'm answering your question.

14 So if there would be a question being posed to

15 the doctor, and that -- by me, and that question would

16 be, "Please evaluate the respondent. Here is the

17 background material concerning the respondent. The

18 government-provided materials are highly disputed by

19 the respondent, and then there is the respondent's

20 materials, which are included for your review. The

21 guidelines would be that you would be required to

22 evaluate the respondent by spending at least six hours

23 of sessions with the respondent. However, additional

24 sessions may be held if you need them in order to make

25 a well-reasoned conclusion on the task that you've been


1 assigned to."

2 ERIC SHINE: If I need them or the doctor

3 needs them? I'm not clear.

4 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: The doctor needs

5 them.

6 ERIC SHINE: Sorry. Well, you said "you,"

7 and -- I got you.

8 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All right.

9 ERIC SHINE: It's your definition.

10 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Now, this would have

11 to be concluded within 30 days from the date that we

12 pick that doctor.

13 ERIC SHINE: And why is that? I'm asking.

14 I'm -- out of ignorance.

15 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: 30 days should be

16 sufficient. If the doctor's schedule is not sufficient

17 to permit that, then there'll be additional --

18 ERIC SHINE: That's why I asked. We even had

19 difficulties trying to get --

20 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I operate -- although

21 you might not agree, I operate by a rule of reason.

22 ERIC SHINE: I'm asking --

23 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I'm trying to be

24 reasonable.

25 Yes, your Honor.


1 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: "Yes," you heard; or

2 "yes," you agree that I'm reasonable?

3 ERIC SHINE: Yes, your Honor, I heard the

4 words, my point being I just wanted -- you said it

5 follows logic or reason or you're a rational

6 individual.

7 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I never said I was

8 rational.

9 ERIC SHINE: Okay. I'm paraphrasing. I grant

10 you that, that you're not.

11 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I never said I was

12 irrational, either.

13 ERIC SHINE: My point being I was just asking

14 how you derive the 30 days. Is this from law, rule or

15 regulation, or is this something that has been

16 derived --

17 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: It's under the

18 Administrative Procedure Act, where I have the

19 authority to reasonably control my courtroom.

20 ERIC SHINE: Okay. So this is setting a rule

21 right now of the 30 days?

22 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: It is my initial

23 impression that that could be concluded within 30 days

24 after the -- after the first appointment. Let's --

25 ERIC SHINE: Granted.


1 That's all -- I'm trying to get more clarity,

2 because what is included in those 30 days, is it your

3 time frame, did you do due diligence, our time frame,

4 did you do due diligence, me to get in there and

5 conclude and have a report.

6 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: You're not doing the

7 due diligence. I'm doing the due diligence, and

8 Mr. Forgie, and with your assistance, will be providing

9 me with a list of questions to ensure that the doctor

10 is not conflicted.

11 ERIC SHINE: Okay. Well, that's one issue.

12 The other is, that as far as Mr. Forgie's

13 stipulation, he had no authority to make that. I'm

14 making it clear to the court these proceedings --

15 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Stipulation as to

16 what?

17 MR. FORGIE: Let me just give my -- clarify

18 the record from my perspective.

19 And I think I touched on yesterday the

20 conversation that we had concerning the psychological

21 exam involving the Navy doctor.

22 My recollection of the conversation was, as I

23 touched on yesterday, and that is that I said, that

24 under no circumstances, did I -- I didn't believe that

25 under any circumstances Eric would go to a Navy doctor.


1 And I wanted to make it more palatable and create this

2 as a possibility perhaps with other conditions.

3 So I said, "Let's --" we all thought it would

4 be a good idea to come up with a nongovernmental

5 psychiatrist.

6 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: And the problem there

7 was if the government used the Navy Doctor, it wouldn't

8 cost them anything; and so therefore, is the

9 concession. You agreed that you would pay for the exam

10 if it was by a private psychiatrist.

11 MR. FORGIE: That's true.

12 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Is that correct?

13 MR. FORGIE: That was the proposal,

14 absolutely.

15 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All right.

16 MR. FORGIE: And so -- and I said I'd

17 recommend it to Mr. Shine.

18 And so the order came out phrased as though it

19 were a stipulation to Dr. Erlich. And I didn't agree

20 with that. Perhaps I didn't take the right steps to

21 set that aside.

22 What I did, in fact, was talk to Eric about

23 it, and he had a lot of concerns about the

24 psychological exam generally. I -- he's correct. I

25 was not under any authority to stipulate to or -- and


1 on his behalf, to go to whoever that person might be.

2 I never received any authority to enter into that

3 stipulation on his behalf.

4 And so what I did in response to that was,

5 when I saw that, I objected to the exam for other

6 reasons that have been maintained till today. And I

7 think there's actually been a second objection for a

8 variety of reasons. The Freedom of Information Act

9 issue came up. The medical records came up. And this

10 all got kind of mixed together. And then -- and I told

11 Eric -- and I do recall you saying in a conversation,

12 that you were going to rescind those orders. And

13 whether they were rescinded or held in abeyance or

14 whatever, I was under the distinct impression that he

15 did not need to comply with those, as you say, extant

16 orders, because -- and I told him those are not

17 effective to control your actions right now, because

18 we've got a hearing set up on yesterday -- beginning

19 yesterday to talk about the good cause that would lead

20 to the order for the exam.

21 And that may have been my mistake. I concede

22 that. But as far as he is concerned, that's what I

23 told him. And from his personal perspective, I told

24 him he didn't need to comply with that, because --

25 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I understand that,


1 but there's no harm and no foul.

2 MR. FORGIE: Okay. I just want to make it

3 clear.

4 Hang on.

5 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: But I want to make

6 something perfectly clear to both Mr. Forgie, Mr. Shine

7 and the Coast Guard.

8 And that is, that in looking at the law on the

9 subject, it is my opinion that just because I allowed

10 you to come down and have the government make a

11 nonmedical, if you will, presentation and then a

12 medical presentation as to a good cause for requiring

13 the exam, that I am not conceding that that is the

14 legal standard that must be employed.

15 MR. FORGIE: I don't have any problem with --

16 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: And indeed, that I

17 still maintain that 33 CFR 20.1313 controls here, along

18 with 46 CFR 5.67.

19 And is there any doubt in your mind,

20 Mr. Forgie, that the -- that included within the charge

21 of incompetence is the issue of Mr. Shine's mental

22 state?

23 ERIC SHINE: May I please respond?

24 MR. FORGIE: No. Let's confer.

25 ERIC SHINE: I'm not supposed to be stifled.


1 I'm trying to represent myself to the court.

2 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Excuse me. You will

3 conduct yourself in accordance with how --

4 ERIC SHINE: I was speaking to my --

5 HON PARLEN L. McKENNA: -- I mandate.

6 ERIC SHINE: Your Honor, I was speaking to my

7 attorney. You asked me to do that, and that's what I

8 was doing.

9 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: You were speaking to

10 me.

11 ERIC SHINE: I was speaking like this -- your

12 Honor, like this (indicating). Would it be better that

13 we step outside so it's more clear that I'm speaking to

14 my attorney and not the court?

15 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Yes, you may.

16 ERIC SHINE: Thank you.

17 (A two-minute recess was taken.)

18 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Back on the record.

19 ERIC SHINE: I just -- I was speaking, and

20 counsel took over. I had -- you know, I was addressing

21 the court. Then all of a sudden, he started addressing

22 the court. You allowed him. And now my counsel is

23 speaking for me when I was address the court, and then

24 you cut me off, stifled me. Under LMRDA, that's not

25 supposed to occur in any court or tribunal.


1 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: That's a continuing

2 objection on your part, and that's fine.

3 ERIC SHINE: Now you're saying I cannot speak

4 again; and now, you direct back to counsel when I've

5 been raising issues trying to get them addressed and

6 resolved. And as we start moving on, you direct it all

7 back to counsel to stifle me so that it creates more

8 confusion so that I --

9 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Maybe it creates

10 confusion in your mind, sir.

11 ERIC SHINE: No. And I object to anything the

12 court has as to the condition of my mind, because there

13 has been no proof or evidence, and I find it

14 prejudicial of the court to even make that comment,

15 that at some point before you get to the issue of

16 medical or mental incompetence, the Coast Guard is

17 supposed to show and prove -- they have the obligation

18 for an expedient trial to do a prima facie showing to

19 seize and hold my license, if it's a matter of safety;

20 then to have it passed over for litigation.

21 MR. FORGIE: And that -- the shortened version

22 of that and the answer to your question is that we do

23 not concede that his mental state is raised by the

24 charges alone, that indeed, the step is that they have

25 to prove the act of incompetence and -- first and


1 foremost. And then and only then, when and if they can

2 show that there's an act of incompetence --

3 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: It's mental

4 incompetence.

5 MR. FORGIE: That relates to his mental state.

6 ERIC SHINE: Either --

7 MR. FORGIE: They have to show that first

8 before that issue is raised sufficiently to then order

9 an exam. That's --

10 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: By what case law are

11 you citing for that proposition?

12 ERIC SHINE: There's tons of it. I mean, we

13 could give you -- I think it's even in some of the

14 motions. Matson is one. The commandant goes into and

15 even stepped in --

16 MR. FORGIE: The case law has been cited in

17 our various motions, I think, about three or four

18 times.

19 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: That's fine.

20 ERIC SHINE: There's very strong cases out

21 there to that effect. I don't --

22 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All right.

23 MR. FORGIE: We don't have any other cases

24 outside that at the moment.

25 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Okay. So we'll sum


1 this up.

2 I have put out -- I mean, it's clear in your

3 mind where I'm coming from as to my extant orders.

4 MR. FORGIE: Okay.

5 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: And that those

6 orders, I am agreeing that I would modify them if

7 Mr. Shine would agree to go to a provider that I chose.

8 But I am not going to rescind them for the sole purpose

9 of chasing my tail and having Mr. Shine ultimately say,

10 "Well, I'm not going to go."

11 So if I have a commitment from your client --

12 MR. FORGIE: To comply with the court order.

13 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: To comply with that

14 situation that I explained on the record, then I would

15 be agreeable to modifying my prior orders regarding the

16 psychological examination.

17 ERIC SHINE: Your Honor?

18 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All right. So now,

19 you two may step outside. You may.

20 ERIC SHINE: Do I need to fire counsel so I

21 can address the court? I find it highly inappropriate

22 that you will not allow me to address these issues so I

23 can speak --

24 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I told you,

25 ultimately, I will allow you ten minutes to state what


1 you want to state.

2 ERIC SHINE: Your Honor, I asked, and you

3 heard me. And I was speaking -- I got cut off. My

4 counsel injected himself on one topic specifically.

5 I'm asking to continue to address the issues that I

6 started to raise rather than cutting me off, because

7 there's other concerns that I have.

8 And I'm asking to be able to express them

9 myself clearly and succinctly as best as possible to

10 the court and not through a conduit when I'm here. I'm

11 here in court, and I am asking to be heard. Whether

12 it's, you know, my First Amendment or free speech or

13 whatever, 14th Amendment, due process, I don't know, I

14 mean, LMRDA, whatever you want to say, I'm -- and

15 you're telling me I can't be --

16 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I'm telling you you

17 need to use your attorney, and then I will give you an

18 opportunity at the end of this session today to make

19 whatever comments you want to make.

20 ERIC SHINE: But it's a waste of the court's

21 time to not hear and address the issues and my

22 concerns, that first and foremost, the order should

23 never have been issued; because ultimately, the --

24 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I ruled.

25 ERIC SHINE: Again, even to your ruling, your


1 Honor, there's outstanding motions that have --

2 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: They're going to be

3 addressed.

4 ERIC SHINE: Right. But an order should be --

5 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: When I am on leave

6 and you file numerous motions and then we have the

7 hearing start up, I have not had an opportunity to

8 review your motions fully and to rule on them in

9 writing, and I will do so shortly.

10 ERIC SHINE: Today?


12 ERIC SHINE: Right. No; but I'm trying -- I'm

13 asking for clarity, your Honor. Why is it a problem

14 for me to ask a simple question and try to get answers,

15 as far as the issues of outstanding -- you're saying

16 these orders are outstanding, that I'm not complying.

17 We have objected to them. I'm not -- I'm here in

18 court. It's not like I'm blowing you off. It's not

19 like I'm not going to the doctor. We have legitimate

20 concerns, whether it is miscommunication between

21 counsel and the court or whatever, whatever the problem

22 was, who cares. I'm trying to straighten it out now on

23 the record, make it very clear what my position is so

24 that there is not further miscommunication.

25 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All right. State


1 what your position is. Will you do what I ask you to

2 do within the parameters of what I stated?

3 ERIC SHINE: I'm asking the court to correct

4 the order, first and foremost, that Dr. Erlich is

5 conflicted. I should not be forced to stipulate to

6 your order saying that I will comply until a proper

7 order is issued. The issue with Dr. -- with the Navy

8 doctor -- I'm saying it's my position --

9 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All right. It's your

10 position --

11 ERIC SHINE: And we have objected to it.

12 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I've heard you on the

13 record --

14 ERIC SHINE: That Dr. Erlich is conflicted.

15 And you're saying that she's not.

16 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: You don't know if

17 she's conflicted or not.

18 ERIC SHINE: I'm telling you, from evidence

19 that came up yesterday, from the way that she was

20 found. It didn't come from you. She's not an

21 impartial doctor. She came from the Coast Guard. She

22 came from the Coast Guard, the opposition.

23 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Your counsel did a

24 due diligence on her with --

25 ERIC SHINE: And I'm --


1 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: -- Lt. Hill and found

2 no problem with her.

3 ERIC SHINE: And I am saying as myself, the

4 respondent in these matters, that I have an issue with

5 it. I object to it. And I find that Dr. Erlich --

6 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: What is your specific

7 objection to Dr. Erlich that you feel that

8 there's conflict of interest with Dr. --

9 ERIC SHINE: Because you are supposed to

10 find -- it is supposed to be an impartial doctor. You

11 are supposed to find the individual, not the Coast

12 Guard, not the Coast Guard. That has been my objection

13 all along.

14 Even yesterday, he brought up -- he wasn't

15 even sure how this whole process occurred. It's

16 supposed to come from the court to ensure that it's

17 impartial. And it's my position, that until that order

18 is corrected, I shouldn't have to stipulate to the

19 order that I will comply, because that will be -- then

20 if I don't, then that, in and of itself, will be a

21 violation of law, rule or regulation or court order.

22 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: And it says any

23 examination ordered by the judge is conducted by a

24 physician designated by the ALJ.

25 ERIC SHINE: Exactly.


1 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Both of the parties,

2 both of the parties --

3 ERIC SHINE: No, I did not --

4 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: -- found her to be

5 acceptable.

6 ERIC SHINE: I am telling you --

7 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Now you're saying in

8 court, "I do not find her acceptable."

9 And I'm saying to you, sir, I'm giving you the

10 opportunity to transplant Dr. Erlich's name for another

11 name --

12 ERIC SHINE: That's not my job.

13 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: -- but I want an

14 agreement by you that you will go --

15 ERIC SHINE: You're forcing me --

16 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: -- and you will not

17 do that.

18 ERIC SHINE: No. That is not what I'm saying,

19 your Honor. You will not listen.

20 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: You're making me

21 chase my tail, and I won't do it.

22 ERIC SHINE: You will not listen to my

23 objections.

24 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: This discussion is

25 over.


1 ERIC SHINE: Your Honor --

2 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: It's over.

3 ERIC SHINE: -- with all due respect --

4 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: It is over.

5 ERIC SHINE: Your Honor, with all due respect,

6 please let me be heard. Please let me be heard.

7 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I said it's over.

8 ERIC SHINE: Please.


10 ERIC SHINE: Well, because you're forcing

11 me --

12 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Mr. Shine --

13 ERIC SHINE: I object, your Honor. You're

14 forcing me --

15 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: You can object, and

16 it's on the record. It's over. That discussion is

17 over.

18 ERIC SHINE: You're asking me to correct your

19 orders.

20 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All right.

21 Mr. Forgie, I can't make this situation right for your

22 client. You know, I've tried my best.

23 MR. FORGIE: Your Honor, I would ask a couple

24 things.

25 First of all, just a statement of the basis on


1 which the court is making the finding that he should

2 submit to the psychological exam, and then a reasonable

3 time to comply with any order that is issued.

4 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I'm not -- I'm not

5 going to do that, Counsel, if I don't get an agreement

6 that he is going to attend.

7 ERIC SHINE: Ask him -- he's waiving my

8 attorney/client privileges so that they can get access

9 to everything else or use this however they want; and

10 at some point, I will not do that. If he issues a

11 proper order, it's upon me to comply. I'm not going to

12 stipulate to something in advance so that he'll correct

13 his order. I'm sorry.

14 MR. FORGIE: All I'm saying, I would ask that

15 there be a reasonable time for him to comply with any

16 order, given the misunderstanding that has arisen in

17 relations to previous orders and the reason that we're

18 here today. I do think that time would be of some

19 benefit. Just by reasonable time, I mean reasonable

20 time.

21 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Mr. Forgie, at this

22 time, I would request that you finish your rebuttal.

23 MR. FORGIE: May I have just a moment before I

24 do that to prepare?



1 (A five-minute recess was taken.)

2 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Back on the record.

3 Mr. Forgie, please make your rebuttal.

4 MR. FORGIE: Let me begin again, because I

5 don't remember where I left off.

6 The documentation -- well, the information,

7 plead absence of any documentation which the Coast

8 Guard presented to this court, first of all,

9 presupposes that it's timely for that kind of an order.

10 As I indicated yesterday, I believe that --

11 and we have restated again today that we believe that

12 the order of proof as a precondition requires that an

13 act of incompetence be demonstrated while acting under

14 the authority of the license, and that that act of

15 incompetence must be demonstrated to be a threat to the

16 safety at sea and to suggest that he can't perform his

17 duties as a marine engineer.

18 And I don't think that's been done at all. In

19 fact, no attempt has been made. And the authority for

20 that has been set forth in our many motions and the

21 brief we submitted, and I would like the record to

22 reflect the brief was submitted yesterday, along with

23 supporting documents. That was served on the court and

24 on counsel for the Coast Guard.

25 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: And I would ask for


1 your indulgence on that point, that you take it back

2 and mail it to my office --

3 MR. FORGIE: I'll do that.

4 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: -- given the fact

5 that it's seven, eight inches thick.

6 MR. FORGIE: I will do that to complete the

7 service.

8 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: The service has been

9 made.

10 ERIC SHINE: Okay. That's my only question.

11 I just didn't know if that was retaliation for some

12 reason or if it was just consideration on our part to

13 send it to the --

14 LT. HILL: Just carrying this big heavy thing

15 on the plane, we have nothing --

16 ERIC SHINE: The court still considers it's

17 been served?

18 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Yes. I'm an old man.

19 I'm not going to carry some --

20 ERIC SHINE: I wouldn't --

21 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: -- ten-pound document

22 around with me.

23 ERIC SHINE: I wouldn't expect you to, your

24 Honor. I wasn't -- I wanted to make sure it wasn't

25 going to affect service.


1 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Proceed.

2 Excuse me.

3 LT. HILL: I'm sorry.

4 MR. FORGIE: As to any documents that relate

5 or refer to or consist of Mr. Shine's medical records

6 or psychological records, we maintain a continuing

7 objection to the privilege, which, as I said, I believe

8 the Coast Guard has admitted exists under Federal law,

9 and I think which has existed under Federal law

10 throughout the time that they undertook efforts to

11 serve subpoenas in violation of that privilege. I

12 understand what the court's feeling is on it, as

13 expressed yesterday.

14 With respect to any possible waiver, there

15 have been no documents submitted that would indicate

16 the extent of that waiver. If any such waiver exists,

17 we strongly dispute the fact that there was any waiver.

18 If there was any waiver for any purpose, it was of

19 extremely limited purpose. He had every expectation

20 that any such documents that were obtained supposedly

21 in response to a waiver are very limited.

22 In conjunction with that argument, the Coast

23 Guard has also acknowledged that there's a right of

24 privacy with respect to those records. And I think

25 that right of privacy should, as Federal courts are now


1 doing, and in fact, the ECMJ executive order confirms,

2 that this privilege and the right of privacy is being

3 expanded, not contracted.

4 The Coast Guard has heavily emphasized the

5 reports of Dr. Kulik, bearing in mind Dr. Kulik, not

6 only is that information privileged and he asserts his

7 right to privacy, but Dr. Kulik was hired by ASM,

8 slash, APL in response to that entity's efforts to try

9 to demonstrate that Mr. Shine was suffering from some

10 emotional instability or mental incapacity. And I

11 think that we would be entitled to cross-examine

12 Dr. Kulik on issues associated with that.

13 The contents of the various letters, we --

14 there's a motion pending before this court relating to

15 how that is protected. He is -- Mr. Shine, in relation

16 to those documents, is asserting his whistle-blower

17 rights, the various statutes that have been submitted

18 over -- or communicated by Mr. Shine over the past

19 couple days do protect that information from use

20 against him in these kinds of proceedings. That is

21 essentially a retaliatory action by the Coast Guard in

22 an attempt to stifle that kind of writing and conduct.

23 And we believe that's totally inappropriate. That

24 would have a chilling effect on anybody in the future.

25 Merely because if an individual who's as passionate as


1 he is about these kinds of issues simply writes letters

2 to employers or any governmental agency, if he thinks

3 that is going to be turned against him, it would be --

4 it will have an extremely chilling effect on that kind

5 of conduct. And I don't think it's permissible, and I

6 don't think it's appropriate.

7 Really, what should be examined here is

8 whether or not Eric Shine ever evidenced any incapacity

9 or incompetency while acting aboard a vessel. And I

10 think it's conceded almost by -- if not expressly done

11 by silence, that there is nothing he did aboard any

12 boat that would indicate that he was incompetent as a

13 marine engineer. And it's a sad fact about these

14 proceedings is that there's sort of an assumption that

15 he can't perform his job, and couldn't perform his job;

16 and yet, there's been no demonstration that he couldn't

17 perform his job. This is all essentially after the

18 fact. And if there is any indication of instability,

19 whatever that might be, any implication, it's not

20 instability that has anything to do with his job. It's

21 a depression, if that, associated with circumstances of

22 his life, which I addressed in detail yesterday.

23 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: But Counsel, I want

24 to make it perfectly clear to you that I am here to

25 protect the public interest. And if there is a -- if


1 there is evidence presented that casts a doubt about

2 whether Mr. Shine's mental condition is -- makes him

3 mentally incompetent, then you're saying that you can't

4 look any further, you can't look at any of his

5 medicals, you can't even go have a medical provider go

6 out and look at him; and so in other words, you're

7 totally estopped from even getting to the issue and,

8 therefore --


10 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: -- dismiss these

11 charges.

12 MR. FORGIE: No. The charging allegations do

13 not permit that kind of an analysis. They necessarily

14 involve an act of incompetence which demonstrates that

15 he cannot perform his duties as a marine engineer.

16 That's the charging allegation. And we continue to

17 assert that that condition be shown here. You know,

18 you or the Coast Guard may feel, that in a snapshot

19 view, there's something wrong. We strongly dispute

20 that, first of all.

21 But secondly, we point out again that the

22 charging statutes do not permit that kind of snapshot

23 view, that kind of snapshot revocation proceeding.

24 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I will be looking

25 very closely at that.


1 MR. FORGIE: Okay. Now, with respect -- just

2 let me finish off the list here.

3 The letters, declarations, whatever you want

4 to call it, from his fellow crew members, it is my

5 recollection -- and we don't have those here before us,

6 but it is my recollection that those were created

7 either on the APL JACKSON or the vessel before that,

8 and they were -- they -- essentially, all they said

9 was -- they had nothing to do with his competency as a

10 marine engineer. There was nothing in there, "This guy

11 can't perform his job. This guy has done 'X,' 'Y' and

12 'Z' as a marine engineer. He screwed up and

13 jeopardized the safety of the vessel."

14 That never occurred. There's no indication

15 whatsoever in any of those declarations to that effect.

16 What they said was he is -- "He talks about

17 litigation all the time. We're afraid of being

18 involved in litigation." And in effect, they confirmed

19 that he is a whistle-blower.

20 Now, the arbitration awards --

21 LT. HILL: I just want to -- a little bit of

22 mischaracterization. Several people, just by his

23 presence on the boat, said it made it unseaworthy.

24 ERIC SHINE: You had your ten minutes.

25 LT. HILL: I'm objecting, just as you did,


1 Mr. Shine.

2 ERIC SHINE: I don't think you've got the

3 right to object. He -- your Honor granted me the right

4 to object.

5 MR. FORGIE: The --

6 ERIC SHINE: It sounded good.

7 LT. HILL: Go ahead.

8 MR. FORGIE: Those are almost -- the cases

9 that we submitted are essentially on all fours. Read

10 those cases. Those cases were arbitration rulings,

11 awards, and they said, not only they're not going to

12 yank his licenses for that kind of stuff, but you can't

13 even fire the guy off the boat.

14 And he is saying that he never did anything.

15 He believes consistently that what he was talking about

16 has always been whistle-blowing and revealing things

17 that are wrong with the union, the grievance process

18 and his employers, in an effort to protect not only the

19 vessel, but national security. It's extremely

20 principled, and those guys that are on the boat just

21 didn't want to hear it.

22 And so then, it's my suggestion that if we

23 want to really find out what -- if those carry any

24 weight with the court at all, in terms of demonstrating

25 his, quote, unquote "mental incapacity," that we ought


1 to be given a chance to cross-examine those people and

2 find out what really they were talking about and what

3 really they meant and what really they perceived he was

4 doing. That is what we're entitled to, in terms of a

5 full adjudication in a hearing.

6 Mr. Shine's position throughout has been, and

7 it is -- I think it is borne out by the documents which

8 we submitted in conjunction with our brief yesterday

9 and which I'll take home and then resend to you. I

10 know it's a lot to ask the court to review that before

11 issuing any ruling. But his position all along, this

12 is a labor dispute, and that alone is the reason why

13 we're here, because he was trying to assert these

14 principled positions, and the Coast Guard has

15 retaliated against him; and indeed, what this court

16 should do is remand this matter to Federal Court for

17 further proceedings to determine the underlying labor

18 issues prior to taking any action.

19 The suggestion by the Coast Guard here is that

20 there's no basis in fact for all those; and indeed,

21 it's -- one of the fundamental foundations of their

22 argument is that, "Look. He's just litigious, and so

23 he's so wrong on all these issues. Although we're not

24 going to look at the issues, he's just so wrong about

25 them that we're -- he must be mentally unstable."


1 LT. HILL: That's not the Coast Guard's

2 position.

3 MR. FORGIE: And yet, they have -- in their 64

4 exhibits which were submitted much earlier virtually

5 all of those have -- bear direct relationship to his

6 labor issues.

7 Now, again, the captain of the APL JACKSON, I

8 forgot his name, January of '02, this was mentioned

9 yesterday by the U.S. Coast Guard, there was an

10 indication that the captain declared Mr. Shine to be

11 insubordinate.

12 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Mr. Forgie, you know

13 that this is an opportunity for the government to show

14 whether the issue of Mr. Shine's mental state is an

15 issue, and it's kind of like a show cause hearing as to

16 whether I should have -- should have ordered and should

17 continue to order a medical exam to find out whether

18 there's any fire underneath that smoke, if any smoke is

19 shown. Do you understand? It's not whether there's

20 the truth of the matter stated therein. It's whether

21 there is sufficient evidence presented, that I was

22 correct in ordering.

23 MR. FORGIE: What we are saying is that the

24 hearing on that issue -- I understand what the

25 standard -- what you perceive the standard to be.


1 What we're saying, we would like a broader

2 hearing with a greater chance of addressing these

3 issues, simply because we perceive them to be kind of a

4 smear campaign, and there is this highly unusual

5 situation, wherein there does not appear to be any act

6 of incompetency at all.

7 And we would like the opportunity -- what

8 we're we talking --

9 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: It can all be

10 resolved by him going to an independent medical

11 psychiatric exam and demonstrating that there's no

12 problem. And he's unwilling to do that.

13 MR. FORGIE: No, not necessarily.

14 ERIC SHINE: Again, I tried to raise those

15 issues, your Honor, and address my concerns so that we

16 could fully address and adjudicate all those issues.

17 But you want to just let the order stand,

18 rather than address some of the concerns that I have,

19 like is that going to be a full waiver of my privilege.

20 I've seen the precedence out there, where the

21 commandant had said, no, if he agreed he knew this

22 would be used, he waived his privilege. It's an old

23 case. It's not even covered under Redman v. Jaffe or

24 whatever and the 50 states legislating support of the

25 therapist/patient privilege or the Supreme Court ruling


1 on it or the executive order by Clinton.

2 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: There is a -- there

3 is a standing objection by you and your counsel that

4 you do not want to submit to a medical exam.

5 ERIC SHINE: Not -- first and foremost, not an

6 improper one that's either the Navy doctor -- because

7 I've sued the U.S. Government.

8 MR. FORGIE: Let him finish.

9 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All right. And so

10 since that order is extant, I am saying, that given the

11 state of this case, where you have an existing order

12 mandating that you have one, then -- and I'm picking

13 the one, my question was, it's not waiver because

14 you're under an order to do so.

15 ERIC SHINE: Well, but --

16 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: So either --

17 ERIC SHINE: I'm still trying to address these

18 issues.

19 MR. FORGIE: It's not a waiver, because you're

20 continuing the objection. All you're saying is you

21 would comply with the order.

22 ERIC SHINE: But I don't have --

23 MR. FORGIE: You're maintaining your

24 objection.

25 ERIC SHINE: But he issues the order, and then


1 it's upon me to comply.

2 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: No. I'm doing it

3 from the bench. But I'm not going to issue one if

4 you're not going to comply.

5 ERIC SHINE: But you're assuming I'm not going

6 to comply.

7 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: You haven't

8 complied -- you haven't complied so far.

9 ERIC SHINE: Because I've objected because I

10 have not been part of the process as to due process.

11 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All right. The

12 answer is simple, sir. It's either a "yes" or a "no."

13 ERIC SHINE: Issue the order, and --

14 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: No. I'm going to do

15 it my way.

16 ERIC SHINE: Again, your Honor, I'm asking you

17 to correct the order first and foremost.

18 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I'm not going to do

19 that.

20 ERIC SHINE: So you won't correct a faulted

21 order?

22 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: It's not faulted.

23 ERIC SHINE: It is in my mind.

24 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: That's in your mind,

25 sir.


1 ERIC SHINE: Again --

2 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: End of discussion.

3 ERIC SHINE: I've raised legitimate concerns,

4 your Honor.

5 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: In your mind.

6 ERIC SHINE: Well, no. My counsel -- speak

7 up, Counsel. Do you feel that I should --

8 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Does that -- all

9 right, yeah, answer the question.

10 ERIC SHINE: I mean, it's attorney/client

11 privilege; but again, I'm asking my counsel to voice my

12 position that there's some problems. He's already done

13 that, even as to the due process and the stipulation.

14 There's obviously an issue. All I'm asking the court

15 to do is to correct the order so that I can comply. I

16 cannot comply with what I see as a faulted order, first

17 and foremost. I should not be forced to stipulate to

18 the order to make me comply. That's saying that --

19 it's already clear, if you issue an order and I don't

20 comply, under 5.67, from your interpretation in the

21 moment, you're saying that if I don't comply, fine.

22 Issue the order, with an impartial, you know, medical

23 provider. That's why I ask for like even a hearing on

24 this issue so that it could be fully heard and I would

25 not be stifled so that you would hear my concerns, not


1 only as to the Navy doctor, which has been a concern,

2 because Mr. Forgie has been speaking for me in hearings

3 that I didn't even know existed. The issue of like

4 Dr. Erlich I brought up in court, and I'm showing my

5 competency right now before the court of like asking

6 questions, "Where did Dr. Erlich come from?" I don't

7 know. I didn't agree to it. I'm saying -- I'm asking,

8 and I'm objecting, and I'm protecting my rights.

9 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I understand.

10 ERIC SHINE: But I'm protecting --

11 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: You're not protecting

12 your rights. What you're doing --

13 ERIC SHINE: To go to a Navy doctor is

14 conflicted because he's part of the U.S. government.

15 To go to a doctor that they find that --

16 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: That is enough. You

17 have said that on the record at least five times.

18 ERIC SHINE: Right. And I'm not saying that I

19 will not comply with the order. But until what I see

20 is a proper order that is not conflicted to where it is

21 an impartial doctor, I cannot, in good faith, comply

22 with the outstanding orders.

23 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: That's fine, sir.

24 ERIC SHINE: I mean, how is that not clear?

25 All I'm asking the court to do is listen to the


1 objections that have been presented, not only by

2 myself, but counsel, and obtain --

3 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Mr. Forgie, would you

4 please counsel Mr. Shine either to accept my generous

5 offer or reject it?

6 ERIC SHINE: But you're forcing me to

7 stipulate to it, which I --

8 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: No. You're not

9 stipulating to anything. All you're doing is saying

10 that you will go, you will obey a lawful court order to

11 see --

12 ERIC SHINE: I have no choice.

13 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: -- an impartial --

14 ERIC SHINE: I have no choice.

15 MR. FORGIE: So say it.

16 ERIC SHINE: If you issue an order under these

17 proceedings, I have to comply --

18 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Well --

19 ERIC SHINE: -- or you will rule --

20 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Excuse me. I have a

21 July 30th order.

22 ERIC SHINE: But we have outstanding

23 motions --

24 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: -- that said you were

25 going to go to Dr. Erlich on August 6th.


1 ERIC SHINE: I didn't -- I didn't say that. I

2 objected to that.

3 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: You said it, because

4 it was said by your attorney.

5 ERIC SHINE: And we filed motions objecting to

6 that on other issues that have not ever had full

7 adjudication or been ruled on.

8 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Your attorney was

9 representing you; so that's why I think that maybe

10 you're not going to comply.


12 MR. FORGIE: No; no.

13 ERIC SHINE: There's --

14 MR. FORGIE: I've just got to say -- stop.

15 We've got to be driving her crazy.

16 ERIC SHINE: Sorry.

17 MR. FORGIE: He was not privy to that, and I

18 think that clouds the issue, really, with all due

19 respect.

20 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I know, but you

21 agreed to it, Counsel.

22 MR. FORGIE: No. I agreed to recommend it to

23 him, because I was trying to --

24 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: No, you agreed.

25 MR. FORGIE: -- facilitate the process.


1 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: You agreed, after due

2 diligence with Lt. Hill, that she was not conflicted

3 and that she would be acceptable as an independent

4 medical exam.

5 MR. FORGIE: Under --

6 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Lt. Hill, you were

7 privy to that conversation. Was that not what

8 happened?

9 LT. HILL: Yes, your Honor.

10 ERIC SHINE: But I still have to sign off on

11 it. I'm sorry.

12 MR. FORGIE: That was the way I presented it,

13 was by way of recommendation to him. And I just think

14 that it's kind of side-stepping what we're really

15 trying to accomplish here, and --

16 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: So what I'm saying --

17 MR. FORGIE: I think we came close to an

18 understanding moments ago; that is, if the court orders

19 him to go to an exam with a neutral person, which you

20 are going to conduct with due diligence, that he will

21 maintain his objections across the board, and he will

22 comply with the court order. That's what I heard him

23 say.

24 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Is that what you're

25 saying?


1 ERIC SHINE: I'm not stipulating to anything.

2 MR. FORGIE: You're not stipulating. You're

3 saying --

4 ERIC SHINE: I'm not --

5 MR. FORGIE: -- you'll comply with the court

6 order and maintaining your objections, maintaining your

7 objections for purposes that you might deem to be

8 later --

9 ERIC SHINE: Please, may I speak with counsel?

10 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: No. Just answer the

11 question. It's "Yes" or "No."

12 ERIC SHINE: It's attorney/client privilege,

13 and I'm trying to tell where I feel that he is injuring

14 me and my rights --

15 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All right.

16 ERIC SHINE: -- because you're making me agree

17 to something.

18 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I'm not making you do

19 anything. That's fine.

20 ERIC SHINE: Then all I'm asking you to do

21 correct the order, issue it and have that as the

22 outstanding order so that --


24 ERIC SHINE: So that I may comply.

25 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: You may, and you may


1 not. That's why I'm not doing it.

2 ERIC SHINE: But I have --

3 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I'm not going to do

4 it unless I have a clear statement from you that if I

5 issue an amended order, you will obey it.

6 ERIC SHINE: I have no --

7 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: It's "Yes" or "No."

8 ERIC SHINE: You're asking me to --

9 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I'm asking you "Yes"

10 or "No," sir.

11 ERIC SHINE: I find it a violation of due

12 process that you're asking me stipulate to a compliance

13 with an unlawful order, which is -- it's like double

14 jeopardy. You're supposed to issue the order, if I

15 don't comply, then go ahead and fine me.

16 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Really?

17 ERIC SHINE: Yes. In my mind, as far as my

18 rights and my protections --

19 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All right. That's

20 fine. It's the end of the discussion.

21 ERIC SHINE: I'm asking to step outside, your

22 Honor, please.

23 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: It's the end of the

24 discussion.

25 ERIC SHINE: Your Honor, we're very close to


1 closing.

2 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Does that conclude

3 your comments, Mr. Forgie?


5 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: You've exceeded your

6 ten minutes significantly.

7 Proceed.

8 MR. FORGIE: There is an assertion that there

9 was a state disability claim mentioned or filed. We

10 have no such documentation. We have no idea

11 whatsoever, and we don't know whether the court is

12 taking that into consideration.

13 LT. HILL: You do have it.

14 MR. FORGIE: I haven't seen it.

15 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: You don't dispute

16 that it might exist, though, do you?

17 ERIC SHINE: I dispute how it was obtained,

18 and not only that, the fact that -- no, your Honor,

19 again, as far as --

20 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Again -- again, I'm

21 asking you to be quiet.

22 ERIC SHINE: You're fired. Do I need to do

23 that, literally, so I may be heard in the court and

24 present my position, your Honor, and defend myself?

25 You're telling me I cannot be heard in this court.


1 You're forcing me to get rid of my counsel so that I

2 may be heard and present my case before the court.

3 And I just find that -- I can't even find

4 words to -- and I'm asking right now that I need to

5 step outside to find out if I have to fire counsel and

6 represent myself. I've already filed in pro per.

7 Whether I'm co-counsel on this or not, I object, object

8 strongly not to be able to voice -- there's been

9 problems as to due process, as far as the actual

10 hearing, the doctor, whatever. I'm trying to address

11 those. And you're still forcing me to go through

12 counsel, where there's been miscommunication. And you

13 will not hear it from the horse's mouth. I'm sorry. I

14 just -- I can't -- and you're forcing me now to proceed

15 on medical --

16 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Mr. Shine, you may

17 do -- you may do whatever you feel is in your best

18 interest. This hearing is going to conclude in

19 approximately ten minutes.

20 ERIC SHINE: Like I was saying --

21 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: So you may step

22 outside and use whatever portion of the ten minutes you

23 want. If you want to terminate your counsel, you may

24 do so. And any remaining matters would be done on

25 paper.


1 ERIC SHINE: So you're going to issue your

2 final order today?

3 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Gee, do you want to

4 read that back?

5 ERIC SHINE: Well, no. I've asked --

6 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I was issuing --

7 what's my final order say?

8 ERIC SHINE: I've tried to bring up the issues

9 of September 23rd, as far as even the doctor --

10 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I'm going to give the

11 Coast Guard --

12 ERIC SHINE: A chance to file a motion?

13 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: We have a hearing

14 date set up for September 22nd or 23rd.

15 LT. HILL: 23rd.

16 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All right. If there

17 is a failure to attend a -- my ordered psychological

18 exam, then I would give you approximately two weeks to

19 file your motion for summary decision, based upon the

20 inference that is contained therein.

21 LT. HILL: Yes, your Honor.

22 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: And you can move for

23 a -- to vacate my order regarding a hearing.

24 LT. HILL: Yes, your Honor.

25 ERIC SHINE: May I have a moment with counsel,


1 please?

2 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Yes. I told you you

3 could.

4 (A two-minute recess was taken.)

5 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Back on the record.

6 MR. FORGIE: Given the court's ruling, we've

7 concluded our statements and --

8 ERIC SHINE: I get my ten minutes.

9 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: You certainly do.

10 MR. FORGIE: I defer to Mr. Shine.

11 ERIC SHINE: He shook his head no when he said

12 that.

13 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I did not.

14 ERIC SHINE: It looked like it.

15 To follow up on what Mr. Forgie said, as far

16 as the issues of even medical or mental competency or

17 incompetency are supposed to require full adjudication.

18 There's commandants' decisions out on this upon appeal.

19 Even on the case, I think there's one

20 individual --


22 ERIC SHINE: Okay.

23 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Commandant's decision

24 on appeals.

25 ERIC SHINE: I'm sorry. I'm over acronyms.


1 CDOA's.

2 Matson, I believe, is one. There was one

3 where an individual had a brain fracture, an individual

4 where there's a report that came out about his

5 schizophrenia, which was his doctor's report. But the

6 commandant even went, as far as due process, that the

7 individual was given many opportunities to refute the

8 information. He didn't show up. They ordered a doctor

9 saying he didn't show up.

10 I have not failed to comply with the order.

11 There's legitimate concerns that I have, as far as the

12 outstanding orders. I've tried to address those with

13 the court. I don't have an objection to, obviously, a

14 lawful order, which is the implication that the court

15 is trying to infer. And I want to make that very clear

16 for the record. I do not see, "a," that it is a lawful

17 order or, "b," not just because of the privacy act

18 issues or privilege issues under Jaffe v. Redman, but

19 also the issues of how the records were obtained, how

20 this information was obtained, the issue that, first

21 and foremost, they have to show and prove an act of

22 incompetence.

23 Every case that's on the record is -- I think

24 there was one where the guy was in Spain or something.

25 He was found guilty by a Spanish court. And it was


1 actually overturned, because the Spanish court didn't

2 have authority or jurisdiction in the United States.

3 He'd actually killed somebody. And it was overturned.

4 The commandant reaffirmed it on appeal. But there was

5 clear adjudication of the issues by some tribunal as to

6 what this guy did. He killed somebody. It was very

7 clear. There was an act of incompetence.

8 There's other cases. I believe the one that's

9 schizophrenia, like I was saying, about the doctor's

10 report, it was introduced; and even the commandant

11 makes note that the individual had a chance to refute

12 it through the hearings, which I believe we've not been

13 afforded the right to evidence, subpoenas, depositions,

14 actual introduction of the records themselves. The

15 Coast Guard has introduced excerpts from letters that

16 haven't even been introduced in their entirety.

17 Mr. Forgie has actually read one of the

18 letters, the one that they brought up about Tim

19 McVeigh. And I've raised it to the Coast Guard of why

20 they would not investigate that. And to me, it goes to

21 the issue of dereliction of duty, which I've been

22 raising for quite some time, that at that point, they

23 were duty bound to come out to me and say, "What is

24 this about? What does this mean? Are you going to do

25 something," if that's what they're trying to infer now


1 from that letter. That letter itself was a statutorily

2 protected right, not only under free speech and other

3 laws, but under the Merchant Marine Act of 1936, LMRDA,

4 and other laws that this court does not have the

5 jurisdiction to rule on, to impose itself upon me by

6 ruling anything other than staying the proceedings or

7 working out the difficulties with the proper order as

8 to an impartial doctor that is obtained by the court

9 and not the Coast Guard, not the opposition. They're

10 already using the employer's DME, defense medical exam,

11 that was paid for by ASM, Dr. Kulik.

12 There's numerous other records that are in

13 question. Even Dr. Todros, who was fired, because I'm

14 a recovering alcoholic, I have 19 years sober, I had

15 issue with taking any kind of drugs whatsoever for any

16 purpose. That individual was fired. There's issues

17 like that that need to be raised and adjudicated. To

18 some level and degree, before we even get there, there

19 has to be an act of incompetence. I've done nothing

20 wrong. And the proceedings that are going on here are

21 further harassment, not only by the Coast Guard, but

22 now the office of administrative law judges wants to go

23 ahead and issue an order against me, saying that if I

24 do not comply, that's a violation of law, rule or

25 regulation, when I have issues not with only the order


1 itself, but the authority for the order, but

2 specifically the order itself as to impartiality. I've

3 raised that issue in court. I'm protecting my rights,

4 whether Mr. Forgie erringly stipulated to it or not, I

5 do not believe that he did. I think it's been

6 misconstrued by the court or the process. Whatever,

7 it's a miscommunication, misunderstanding, and I'm

8 making it clear on the record that I'm moving to

9 correct that record.

10 I've asked the court to issue a proper order

11 as to an impartial -- or panel of impartial -- you

12 brought up, your Honor, yesterday five, you know,

13 whatever -- whatever it is, that it be chosen and found

14 from the court and not the Coast Guard, who is a party

15 to this.

16 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: And I indicated to

17 you that I would be willing, even though -- even

18 though, based upon the due diligence of your lawyer,

19 that Dr. Erlich was found not to be conflicted and that

20 you have presented no evidence at this hearing that she

21 is indeed conflicted.

22 ERIC SHINE: That -- who, Dr. Erlich?

23 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Dr. Erlich.

24 ERIC SHINE: No. The Coast Guard presented --

25 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All right. Now what


1 I'm saying to you is that I offered you the

2 opportunity, that if you would go to another

3 psychiatrist that I picked who wasn't conflicted, even

4 maintaining your objection to going in the first place,

5 if you would go, then I would issue another order.

6 ERIC SHINE: But again --

7 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All I needed was a

8 statement that you would obey the order.

9 ERIC SHINE: Your Honor --

10 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: If you won't obey the

11 order, then I'm not going to issue it.

12 ERIC SHINE: It's not an issue of whether or

13 not I'll obey it. You're depriving me of other avenues

14 of redress, even a temporary restraining order against

15 you for imposing that upon me.

16 And I am forced now to bring that up, which is

17 attorney/client privilege, saying that if you impose

18 yourself against me and correct the order, you're

19 asking me to stipulate in court that I will comply with

20 what I believe is an unlawful order. That does not

21 make sense to me.

22 At some point, if you correct the order, first

23 and foremost, the issue of -- the only thing that I

24 will stipulate to is that if you find that there's --

25 if you find the doctor yourself or a panel, then it


1 will be a lawful order.

2 Right now, as to Dr. Erlich, I -- it is my

3 position that I did not stipulate to that. My counsel

4 did not stipulate to that.

5 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: That might be your

6 position, but the rule doesn't say -- the rule doesn't

7 say that I pick it.

8 ERIC SHINE: No, your Honor. If you read the

9 rule that you read yesterday, it's very clear that it's

10 chosen by your Honor and not the opposition. The

11 opposition was the one who chose Dr. Erlich, not --

12 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: That's fine.

13 ERIC SHINE: But he brought it up in court and

14 even mentioned it on the record. It's a matter of

15 record, your Honor.

16 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: The record is clear

17 as to how Dr. Erlich was chosen.

18 ERIC SHINE: Could you restate and reaffirm

19 how --

20 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: There is exactly no

21 evidence in this record that Dr. Erlich is conflicted.

22 ERIC SHINE: And again, your Honor, the Coast

23 Guard stated yesterday on the record as to the process

24 that was followed. They were a party to that process.

25 I did not stipulate to it. This individual did not


1 come from the court, was not found on an impartial

2 basis.

3 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: The solution is quite

4 clear. Just tell me that you would obey my order and

5 go to the psychiatrist that I would pick, and this is

6 over.

7 ERIC SHINE: But again, this goes --

8 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: Don't give me "but

9 again." It's "Yes" or "No."

10 ERIC SHINE: But --

11 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: It's "Yes" or "No,"

12 sir.

13 ERIC SHINE: It's Napoleonic law. You're

14 asking me to unprove their case; where, no, They're

15 supposed to prove the incompetence, not me disprove --

16 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I know that's your

17 opinion.

18 ERIC SHINE: It's the opinion of the United

19 States Constitution. It's due process, your Honor.

20 This is not Napoleonic law, where I have to disprove

21 the charges. They have to prove the charges.

22 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: I find that there's

23 sufficient basis, factual basis, separate and apart

24 from the medical basis, and in addition, there is

25 separate medical basis which are sufficient cause to


1 make me feel that you need to have an independent

2 medical exam.

3 ERIC SHINE: Can you cite the reasons for the

4 record?

5 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: No. I'm not -- I

6 will do it in writing. This is a -- this is basically,

7 is there sufficient basis to have you looked at.

8 ERIC SHINE: What is the act of incompetence?

9 What am I being charged with that --

10 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: That's fine, sir.

11 ERIC SHINE: No. But I'm asking you, your

12 Honor, so it's clear. Because at some point, it's not

13 clear from the record or anything else what I am being

14 accused of that even brings me before this court.

15 HON. PARLEN L. McKENNA: All right. We'll

16 stand adjourned.

17 Thank you very much.

18 (Proceedings concluded at 10:55 a.m.)


20 * * *







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Homeland Insecurity 07.Jan.2005 15:46

A circus through and through...