CANADA : PEACE

U.S. soldiers seek asylum in Canada

 

Soldiers Hinzman and Hughey
Soldiers Hinzman and Hughey


U.S. Army privates Brandon Hughey and Jeremy Hinzman, both opposed to the U.S. war and occupation in Iraq, are seeking sanctuary in Canada. Their struggle for political asylum may be viewed as a test case for future dissent by U.S. military personnel who object to being used as cannon fodder by the Bush regime to further its expansionist goals in the Gulf region.

Hinzman, as well as his young family, and Hughey are represented by Jeffry House, a Canadian lawyer who has begun the process of applying for refugee status and hopes to convince Canadian immigration officials that Jeremy and Brandon "should not have been forced to take part in an illegal war that violates basic norms of human decency."

[ Take action 1, 2 | Resisting militarism | Interview with Hinzman }

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ugh

Dave 22.Apr.2004 06:03

I hope Canada sends them back. If they're going to desert their fellow soldiers and their country because of personal convictions I wont question them. However they should be prepared to face the consequences. I seriously doubt they would get the death penalty even though they could.

pawns

Alan 22.Apr.2004 12:23

treat soldiers not like pawns, and perhaps they would show a greater depth of loyalty and respect for a leader who has indeed abused his powers. do not lose sight of the fact; this war was waged on false pretenses.

argh

Lane DeNicola 22.Apr.2004 12:41

As a veteran, my response to the earlier comment is that if the Bush administration is going to desert its responsibilities to the global community--whether because of "intelligence failures" or personal convictions (e.g. greed) I *would* question them, and they better be just as ready to face consequences (though I'm skeptical that the individual members of the Bush team responsible will in fact face more than a lost election).

I laud the hard choice of the two privates, thank them for opening up some alternatives, and reflect on the Iraqi civilians they will never have had to kill in the name of "liberation."

Meanwhile, in the lower 48

stateside stan 22.Apr.2004 13:17

On April 20, the Supreme Court heard the first
constitutional challenge arising from the Bush
regime's so-called war onterrorism.
In cases Rasul v. Bush and Al Odah v.
United States, the Court will decide if U.S. Courts
have jurisdiction over a U.S. Military Base in
Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The Executive Branch insists
that Guantánamo is outside of the U.S. Constitution
and international law and no court in the world has
jurisdiction, and the President has un-checked wartime
powers.
 http://dc.indymedia.org/feature/display/94759/index.php

selective service re-instituted?

some guy 22.Apr.2004 17:43

Let me get this straight, they enlisted in the ARMY, the _ARMY_, and then decide to run to Canada when military action is used? I have nothing but contempt.

Escapists

Andy Guitar 22.Apr.2004 18:15

These people obviously feel very, very strongly about the whole Iraq thing. It's far too easy to start waving flags around and blindly following the "leader" of a country into whatever mess he creates. It's also far too easy to use words such as "traitor".

I admire them for their sheer guts. They disagree with something to the point that they are willing to dump everything and leave their home country. Maybe if a few more people inside America got off their arses and stood up to be counted, the world wouldn't be suffering "he who is known as Bush". Okay, Saddam Hussein was\ is a major asshole who destroyed the lives of countless people in his own country, but tell me; is it REALLY a coincidence that the president of the USA is an oil peddler and that this country has so much oil? I don't see the USA getting too involved in Ruanda or various other areas of the world that are suffering at the hands of dictators... Next stop Zimbabwe, anyone?

Good For Them

tamara 22.Apr.2004 19:09

There are many reasons why people join the army. One reason so many young people join is becuase they need the money, the want the benefits the army offers such as help with education, and they may not even know what to do with their life. I'm proud that these guys stood up for themselves and refused to go to Iraq. And why should they remain here only to be punished for not going to war? They refuse to be victims of the war or the state. They refuse to have their lives taken away whether it be in battle or in prison. They are merely protecting themselves. Good for them. I hope future soldiers follow their lead. They may have to since people have begun to discuss the possibility of a draft in March 2005.

Thank you.

Aspen 22.Apr.2004 19:52

I’m a vet, and I don’t have any contempt for you what so ever. You’re only required to follow lawful orders, and how can an order to fight in an illegal war be lawful? You’re protecting yourselves and your families from the WMD that we’re using in Iraq (DU -  http://www.kucinich.us/dkdu.html)

When they reinstitute the draft, I hope more of us will have the courage to deny them. Thank you Brandon and Jeremy for having true courage, history will vindicate your difficult decisions.

Stupid men...

WillieStark 22.Apr.2004 21:24

I just love the bias this site shows. Anyway, if there men did not want to fight for their country, that's fine. They have the right not to enlist. But they did enlist, and they should fight. I hope they are sent home, then dishonorably discharged.

Interesting idea though...

Joe Meerkat 22.Apr.2004 21:51

So take the idea a step further:
What if an American refugee camp is founded, say, in Canada. A group of people fleeing the country for fear of their lives. Not danger of death, but danger of having their lives consumed by the consumer-capitalism and blind patriotism of America.

Is an idea like this feasible? legitimate?
Does anyone have anything to add to the thought?

Good for them

Kurai Tsuki 22.Apr.2004 21:56

I hope they are able to get asylum in Canada and start a new life, away from all the nonsense with which american life is filled.

It's not optional once you join

Ariana 23.Apr.2004 01:31

In response to the comment above, "There are many reasons why people join the army. One reason so many young people join is becuase they need the money, the want the benefits the army offers such as help with education, and they may not even know what to do with their life." That's true, but the army's purpose is NOT to provide money, education, or a goal in life. The army's purpose is to defend our country (in whatever way the government chooses). While I disagree with many aspects of the government's current use of the army, I think it is ridiculous to enlist and then run away when the fighting begins. I was urged by many friends to enlist as a veterinary officer to pay off my $150,000 in school loans with four years of service; instead I chose to pay it off over 30 years of my life because I KNEW I DID NOT WANT TO HAND MY LIFE OVER TO THE ARMY. If these men were not prepared to serve the army when they asked for its handouts, they should not have enlisted.

Two poor kids

Red neck 23.Apr.2004 06:46

It takes a lot more courage to do what they did, than to simple just follow orders.
So,you people believe that if your commander says shoot civilians you should
because it your duty? That’s happening everyday in Iraq. Maybe you haven’t noticed what we’re doing in Falluja. Don’t call these kids cowards or slackers, they’re in a world of trouble.

American 'Progressives' are Pathetic

hasan akbar 23.Apr.2004 12:57

A few comments:

Despite what American Liberals and other phony progressives would have you believe, this is not "Bush's" war. It is America's war through and through. All your pathetic attempts to deflect the blame for this criminal war (both on Iraq and the phony War on Terrorism in general) don't fool anybody.

America in general--including demorats like Kucinich and Kerry--has overwhelmingly supported the phony War on Terrorism. And a majority of Americans--both Demorats and Republiklans--support the American aggression against Iraq.

This is your criminal war, America, own up to it. Blaming it on Bush only is cowardly weasel tactic--even for an American.

For the clown who is asking why the USA doesn't attack other countries to "remove dictatorships," your America is the greatest dicatorship and greatest tyranny on this planet. What moral or political right do you have to invade and attack anyone--under any pretense or pretect?

Secondly, all of you fascist American patriots who are whining that these guys should be brought back to the USA to "face the consequences," you will soon have a chance to prove your twisted patriotism as your bloodythirsty rulers are already quietly dropping hints that they will reinstitute the draft most likely after the 2004 "election."

Get ready to offer up your own pathetic life as cannon fodder for the American Empire and its murderous war machine.




re:Stupid men...

TG 23.Apr.2004 13:24

This is a respone to 'Willie's' angry comment:
If a kid joins an armed street gang and then realizes he doesn't want to spend the rest of his life killing people for money or crack, wouldn't you be happy that he saw the truth and decided to pull out?
These 'stupid men' have realized the truth about the true nature of the US Army cartel, and want to leave the lifestyle of murder they got themselves signing up for.
They saw the truth. Good for them. And since their 'homies' in the States are threatening to punish them for making the right choice, there is nothing wrong with these 2 men fleeing to Canada.

RE STUPID MEN & PATHETIC

BAUER 23.Apr.2004 15:13

I FIND IT VERY REVEALING THAT ALL THE AUTHORS, OF THE COMMENTS THAT ARE AGAINST THE TWO SOLDIERS, ARE POORLY WRITTEN WITH MANY GRAMMATICAL ERRORS. IT CERTAINLY SHOWS THE LACK OF INTELLIGIENCE. ANYONE INFORMED ON WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON IN IRAQ KNOWS THAT THIS WAR IS WRONG. WE ATTACKED A COUNTRY THAT DID NOT ATTACK US, ON THE BASIS THAT THEY HAD WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, OOPS THEY DON'T HAVE THESE WEAPONS. NOW LETS TRY TO JUSTIFY THE ENTIRE WAR BY SAYING THAT SADDAM WAS EVIL, SO ITS OK. WRONG. IF THIS IS THE CASE THEN SURELY EVERYONE WILL BE SUPPORTIVE OF U.S. TROOPS BEING SENT TO ALL OF THE OTHER COUNTRIES OUT THERE THAT HAVE EVIL LEADERS, AND WE CAN START WARS WITH THEM. THERE ARE MANY OTHER COUNTRIES OUT THERE THAT HAVE SIMILAR CONDITIONS-SO-WHY NOT? WAKE UP AND REALIZE THAT BUSH WANTED TO INVADE IRAQ FOR ITS OIL-& TO SETTLE A SCORE WITH SADDAM, FOR HIS DADDY-WAKE UP AMERICA!

Poor men

Eveal 23.Apr.2004 23:18

if their government had taken proper steps to protect their soldiers and not use them as an expendable resource then they wouldn't have to flee to Canada where they would feel protected.
They most likely wouldn't have enlisted if they didn't feel they could make a better difference in the world, but instead they got a leader filled with greed and the dight of their fellow soldiers dying. That was probably not what they wanted to see; and as a Canadian I fully welcome them to this country with open arms!

Bauer

hasan akbar 23.Apr.2004 23:49

The true evil leaders are found in your America whether that be Democrat or Republican.

Like most American manipulators you are attempting to find a few scapegoats for America's criminal war in terms of the Bush regime. Your "analysis" that the American invasion of Iraq is motivated by George Bush's desire to get revenge for his father is comical in its simple-mindedness and stupidity.

If your "analysis" is correct, how do you explain the fact that all the leading Democrats--including John Kerry--supported the invasion of Iraq and continue to support it to this very day, despite the fact that America's lies about WMDs have been proven to be a fraud?

Your comments demonstrate the fact that Americans--whether prowar or antiwar--are more interested in covering up for your murderous America than you are in standing for justice.

an american refugee camp in canada?

dark soup 24.Apr.2004 00:05

well, the left/socialist types wld love it for the sheer expose`of our good naybor, and near glamour of a Canadian bee jar to show the dimwitted world how PC and utterly craven,desireable the CannedLeft is..and those guys from the U.S. army, in small numbers, can rest assured they'll receive monied assistance in $Canada$.

Ironic

Josh 24.Apr.2004 07:19

I find it ironic that the people on this page talk of the American army a 'cartel' and a gang selling crack. This is not the same army the stopped fascism and nazism in the 1940's and the same one that stopped Communism all the way through to the Soviet Union's collapse? No matter how much some people dislike it, there will always be an army, navy and airforce. On a side note, to Akbar, thank you for your enlightening comments. You talk of American murder and injustice. I hear of no injustice though from other countries. All I hear is American injustice. I must ask what country you are from, and then, please, you must continue to educate me on American imperialism.

Best wishes

F. Aarne Lozano 25.Apr.2004 19:17

I wish them both all the best and hope that they can find asylum and live a more meaningful life in Canada.

Misleading Link

Nightwalker 25.Apr.2004 21:38

The link promises an "Interview with Hinzman;" the interview is, in fact, with his wife, Nga Nguyen.

RE: IRONIC

brian. 26.Apr.2004 00:02

Isn't it a shame we can't fight the very own fascism we face every day in America?

American Murder and Injustice

hasan akbar 26.Apr.2004 06:32



Looks like the Pro-American trolls have invaded Indymedia. These American clowns cannot defend the numerous crimes against humanity committed by their America so they whine that their America is being singled out for condemnation.

Your America is being singled out because you Americans are a global Empire which has disproprionate power, influence, and domination over the rest of the planet to inflict your murder and injustice with impunity. Worse yet, your Fascist America attempts to hide and disguise this injustice with disgusting lies and propaganda about being a "champion of freedom and democracy"--a lie that only American apologist desperately cling to these days.

As for Josh's nonsense about how the America defeated Nazism and fascism, this is yet another example of how arrogant and brainwashed these American fascist "patriots" truly are. If anything, it was the Soviet Union which defeated Nazism and fascism. The USA sat out most of WWII and was content to cynically allow the Soviets and Nazism to fight it out.

And in terms of "stopping Communism," you have it ass backwards. It was Communism and the Soviet Union which was stopping Americanism and its expansionism throughout the Cold War. Now that the Cold War has supposedly ended, and the USA is unfortunately the World's Only Superpower, the USA has been increasingly embolded to wage wars of aggression around the world from Iraq to Yugoslavia to Somalia to Afhganistan and now Iraq again.

These AmeriNazis like Josh live in their own Hollywood version of reality in which their beloved American Evil Empire is a "good guy" nobly going around the world bombing and murdering and invading Third World people--all in the name of democracy and freedom no less.

You trolls had better get through your head that your All-Americans lies will be exposed whenever and wherever you spew them whether that be Indymedia or elsewhere.

The "AmeriNazis"

Ethan Renard 26.Apr.2004 17:23

in response to Mr. Akbar's most recent comment ,

I do agree with some of your views on America and it's evils, but I feel your opinion on the American public is a bit skewd. You sound as if you are generalizing everyone in America as evil and everyone is to blame. Living in America, I find this highly untrue. Not everyone in this country is devoted to the Facist Corporate America War Machine, and many do much to try and stop these evils. While, I must admit, the liberals are primarily all talk and no action, there are still plenty of unAmericans around, pushing human rights and values.

I guess what I am getting at is to not blindly hate all the people in a country just for what the country's government does, or persuaded the majority of the population to believe. There are decent human beings out here. Try and believe it

Freedom and Democracy we deliver

francisco 26.Apr.2004 18:26

«The young American Marine is exultant. "It's a sniper's dream,' he tells a Los Angeles Times reporter on the outskirts of Fallujah. "You can go anywhere and there so many ways to fire at the enemy without him knowing where you are." "Sometimes a guy will go down, and I'll let him scream a bit to destroy the morale of his buddies. Then I'll use a second shot." "To take a bad guy out," he explains, "is an incomparable "adrenaline rush." He brags of having "24 confirmed kills" in the initial phase of the brutal U.S. onslaught against the rebel city of 300,000 people.»

Taken from:
 http://www.indybay.org/news/2004/04/1678005.php

No war No fascist Usa

francisco 26.Apr.2004 18:31

«The occupation of Iraq has, of course, been portrayed by Bush ideologues as a "laboratory for democracy" in the Middle East. To MOUT geeks, on the other hand, it is a laboratory of a different kind, where Marine snipers and Air Force pilots test out new killing techniques in an emergent world war against the urban poor»

Taken from:
 http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18457

Hey Akbar, it's JIHAD TIME!

The Critic 27.Apr.2004 01:54

Akbar, It is my most fervant hope & prayer that you & all of your kind get to experience an American-made nuclear holocaust first hand. The only redeeming quality the Middle East has is the existance of the state of Israel. If you were on fire, I wouldn't piss on you to put you out. I apologize to the rest of the people here for the above comments, but this guy is just a major league jerkwad, & I wanted him to know that.

silly silly fascists

dj 27.Apr.2004 02:55

to "the critic" and other fascists:
Thank you so much for showing your true ignorance. Look at who's promoting "jihad" by wishing for the murder of millions of innocent people and proclaiming support of the current slaughter being carried out on Palestinians by the Israeli state.

to Akbar, As an American, I would like to thank you for your wonderful analysis. There are activists in America (although relatively few) who fully understand America's long history of human rights abuses carried out by the state. We are working hard to help educate "patriotic" activists who are still blinded by false hope in the Democratic party (and the American form of democracy as a whole).

To the Critic

hasan akbar 27.Apr.2004 04:20

Your comments about Nuclear holocaust only prove the fact that your America is increasingly nothing more than a global Fascist Empire in everything but name.

One thing that you American warmongers should understand: if you live by the sword, you deserve to die by the sword. If you threaten the rest of the world with your nuclear holocaust, don't cry and complain when that nuclear inferno is returned to you in spades.

As for the American dissidents on this site, your work in educating your fellow citizens is to be commended. However, as evidenced by the comments of the fascists on this site, there is a long way to go before most Americans will be willing to give up their militaristic mindset.

Traitors!

Mystery Guest 27.Apr.2004 05:27

There is no such thing as an "innocent" Islamo-fascist. The Islamic fanatics declared war on the west, & if we don't take the war to them, they'll take it to US. Anyone can't that understand that people like Akbar will not be satisfied until evey American is dead, is nothing more than a quisling. There will be no peace until one side or the other no longer exists. Never again can a 9-11 be allowed to happen to America. The two jerks that deserted & went to Canada are nothing less than traitors & should never be allowed to step foot in the US ever again. I served my country for six years, & I never once thought of doing what they did.

fascisim, empire, dictators, and civilians - to hasan akbar

zachary_wolff@yahoo.com 27.Apr.2004 07:09

I hope everyone reading agrees that civilians cannot be held responsible for the actions of fascist leaders. It is this logic that tells us that Iraqi civilians do not deserve to die, no matter how bad Saddam was. It is this logic that also tells us that Americans, as a whole, cannot be held responsible for the actions of their government. Though America is nominally a democracy, this is clearly a farce. Barely half the population votes, and when they do it is a choice between two puppets that put different masks over their support for corporate interests. As Hasan Akbar pointed out, both current major party Presidential candidates supported the illegal invasion of Iraq.

As an American, I stand stronly against this war, as I would have stood against America's many unjust wars in the past had I been alive at the time. I feel no responsibility for the war. For my part, meager though it be, I have demonstrated against war, voted for minor party candidates, campaigned for anti-war candidates (I disagree with Hasan Akbar's condemnation of Kucinich, and would like to see references), and moved abroad to avoid paying US income taxes. Of course I was only able to take all these steps easily because I was born into relative privelege. I applaud everyone who resists to whatever degree their circumstance allows.

As for those Americans that support the war, some clearly have poor moral judgment and should be held accountable for their choices.. However, not even all those that support the war can be held fully brought to blame. Those who have never lived in America often underestimate the amount of covert brainwashing that occurs. Of course Chomsky is one of the leading speakers on this topic and has published extensively (Manufacturing Consent; Necessary Illusions: Thought Control in Democratic Societies; Media Control: The Spectacular Achievements of Propaganda; What Makes Mainstream Media Mainstream; and more). As an illustrative example, consider that at several different times polls showed the number of Americans who supported the war to be equal to the number of Americans who believed Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Of course this was an outrageous lie, but like any lie, repeated enough, it became accepted by the masses.

Blame the State that wages war, blame the powerful interests who benefit from war, but do not blame the civilians.

Good riddence to trash

Hated in Seattle. 27.Apr.2004 12:33

wow, sounds like a couple of leeches who thought they'd be able to cheat taxpayers out of money then once they are called up to do the job they volunteered for.. all of a sudden they get a conscience. Fuck em

1 shot 1 kill

Hated Iin Seattle. 27.Apr.2004 12:56

The young American Marine is exultant. "It's a sniper's dream,' he tells a Los Angeles Times reporter on the outskirts of Fallujah. "You can go anywhere and there so many ways to fire at the enemy without him knowing where you are." "Sometimes a guy will go down, and I'll let him scream a bit to destroy the morale of his buddies. Then I'll use a second shot." "To take a bad guy out," he explains, "is an incomparable "adrenaline rush." He brags of having "24 confirmed kills" in the initial phase of the brutal U.S. onslaught against the rebel city of 300,000 people.»





Yet funny enough.. when they kill and drag Americans through the street you cheer and say they get what they deserve. You're pathetic and a hypocrit.

Lapdogs

Shaefer 27.Apr.2004 17:36

I happened to see a dog smaller than a shih tzu barking it's tiny head off at cars and other dogs while it was safely inside of it's house, and I couldn't help but laugh, because I kept thinking that's exactly what most liberals look and sound like when they talk about defense or the military. They know next to nothing about either, but whenever it serves their purposes they become VERY patriotic and CONCERNED for our men and women in uniform. Whatever. How can you cheer the deaths of our soldiers (who are not fighting an illegal war, but a necessary one) overseas, cheer spineless morons like these two defectors, and call yourself a patriot?
And if you ask me, even if this war were illegal, I would still rather fight in it than have to live in Canadia.

GIVE ME A BREAK!

hct 27.Apr.2004 17:36

Why did this boys join the military in the first place? All I see is an excuse to bring attention to themselves and nothing more. If caught and convicted of being AWOL in a court martial, I hope they get the maximum penalty as any other who wishes to do the same. If you don't want to go to war, don't join the military. Pretty simple, isn't it?

RE:American 'Progressives' are Pathetic

Shaefer 27.Apr.2004 17:47

Dear Hasan,
I agree with you that this IS America's war. It's one we should be fighting. The people we kill should be killed. There is nothing illegal about this war just because you hate America. It is, however, illegal to be a terrorist, harbor a terrorist, give aid and support to terrorists, etc. It's just too bad we are trying to fight this war in a way that will satisfy the media and the politically correct in this country and in Europe. There shouldn't be a single building standing in Falluja. That isn't an uprising. That's a bunch of Iranians and Syrians coming to the show late in the game trying to stir up trouble for us. So be it. Level the place. Oh, wait, there might be civilian casualties, right? Boo-freakin'-hoo. This is a war, not a tea party. We should be concerned with protecting American lives first and level the city. Terrorists are only emboldened by pussyfooting like we're doing now.

So they joined the Army

SouthernLadyGA 27.Apr.2004 18:52

to earn a College Degree....looks like Mom and Dad will be footing the bill instead of the taxpayers!

yeee-hawwwwwwww!

chicagojohn 27.Apr.2004 19:07

Wow. What a redneck.

It's American opinions like these that were hoped to be toned down after September 11th. After all, the idea was that killing in any capacity is BAD. Europe learned it after two world wars, but since all we saw in that time were wooden boxes coming off a plane (RECENTLY uncensored(??!)) and pictures on a TV set, we have no idea what that really means. Maybe it if were your family that got killed, you'd think differently?

This isn't a video game, cracker Jack.

Democracy we deliver

francisco 27.Apr.2004 19:30

Democracy we deliver
Democracy we deliver

For all you fascists who defend this war against the people of iraq:
How would you feel if some foreign army would come and invade the usa to free it from the dictator George Bush, who was not elected, and your families were blown to pieces by some less-intelligent-bombs and then reported as «collateral damage»?
And how would you feel if you were being transported in an ambulance and some enemy snipers shot the ambulance??? And defenseless women and children on the streets too???

I live in portugal.
If this country was to be invaded by any other country, i would have no hesitation to fight the invaders.

I don't cheer casualties not in the iraqi side nor in the american side. But who are the real terrorists, the people fighting the invasion or the invaders?

Just remember who helped saddam hussein and the talibans: the usa. portugal also helped saddam hussein by selling him weapons. How can now the "leaders" of these two countries say they're fighting terroris when they helped create it? (note that saddam hussein is an awful man and i'm not defending him)

Cowards

Bob 27.Apr.2004 20:03

These guys are nothing but yellow belly cowards.

They signed up to serve their country when there was no war. It was probably the only job they could get. They thought they would get free food, a roof over their heads, medical insurance, etc. Then, when it was time for them to do their duty they tuck in their tails and run to desert their country. What a crock of crap. And, these poor cowards are getting sympathy from the media.

I'd love to see them behind bars.

Bob is a coward

coward bob 27.Apr.2004 20:27

They're "opposed to the U.S. war and occupation in Iraq". They're not cowards.

I am proud of the soldiers who stay

rose 27.Apr.2004 23:47

What about loyalty to your fellow soldier? What did these young men think the were joining? Disneyland? I feel sorry for them. They should have done some soul searching before they signed on. They are not patriotic they are not loyal they are selfish and self centered. Fellow soldiers were counting on them.

I am proud of the young men and women that stay. They are hero's and they give me hope for the future. I owe those who stay a sincere thank you!

it's like talking to a blind and deaf man in here

Shaefer 28.Apr.2004 00:42

Go to Europe and appease, then. We had to get them out of those two world wars, if you recall, because we didn't have a problem with doing most of the work to end tyranny and opression. We're in the same situation today, just with more sand and a less civilized enemy. Sometimes there's a time to kill. The people in Iraq, Iran, Syria, N Korea, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, etc would love the chance to kill you. Some people have the balls to put a stop to it before it happens. How many Sept 11s will it take for people like you to stop screaming the word "fascist!" out of context and grow a pair? Do you know anyone in the military? Would you say the same types of things to them face-to-face? Would you be low-class enough to call them a pawn and say that a barbarian terrorist's life is more precious than your fellow Aerican's? It's so ironic that people like you in America cry and piss and moan and insult the integrity of the very people who fight for your freedom to cry and piss and moan all of the time and not do anything but sit around giving shitty advice about foreign relations.

You people are nothing but...

NRA4Freedom 28.Apr.2004 14:02

...Cowards.

Treason

Lance Miller 28.Apr.2004 16:10

These two less-than-human deserters are guilty of treason. Period. Deport them and put them in front of the firing squad. They swore an oath to defend and knew the consequences. No amount of liberal b.s. will ever make that fact untrue. They can have all the "feelings" they want, but their job was to defend. I took that oath as did many others. It is an ALL VOLUNTEER military folks, not a draft. They knew what they were getting into. They just want fame. They are guilty of desertion by the UCMJ. May the suffer in death as the cowards they are.

National Defense

1planet1people 28.Apr.2004 17:24

Ever think that some people may have actually joined to defend their country (that is why it is called a defense department). If a person joins the defense department to defend, then finds out that they are being used to oppress free people, then they should be allowed to step down. Regardless of the conditions before, Saddam is now gone and we no longer have ANY right to be there (not that we did in the first place). If you love America, then stand up for it against the current government and, if necessary, go to Canada!

We helped WWII?

1planet1people 28.Apr.2004 17:32

We had to get them out of those two world wars, if you recall, because we didn't have a problem with doing most of the work to end tyranny and opression

----------

If I understand history correctly, we didn't get involved in WWII until the very end. We may have quickened the fall of the Nazis, but they had already began to lose by attacking too many fronts at once before we decided which side to support. Isn't that American, wait to find out who will win and then help them with the last few battles......

And, if we are such a great place why did we let Nazi POWs ride in the first class “white cars”, while the African American soldiers who fought bravely against them, were made to ride in the second class “colored” section of the trains.

Blind and Deaf? Better than the sheep

1planet1people 28.Apr.2004 18:17

Reading this, I can’t help myself from blasting the very unphilosophical comments out here:
----------------
Shaefer 28.Apr.2004 00:42

It's so ironic that people like you in America cry and piss and moan and insult the integrity of the very people who fight for your freedom to cry and piss and moan all of the time and not do anything but sit around giving shitty advice about foreign relations.
---------------

I am confused about some stuff so I hope you reply...

1. When was the last time a country attacked us with the intention of taking my freedom? I remember the war of 1812, but that was the last time a foreign government attacked us on our own soil (Hawaii wasn’t ours at the time, and 9/11 were people mad at us and wanted us to stop supporting Israel and to leave Saudi Arabia, but they weren’t trying to take us over or take our freedoms). You say they are fighting for my FREEDOM, yet the only people taking freedoms away from Americans (Patriot Bill) is our own Government that is in control of our country. The way I see it, it is the anti-bush movement that you should be thanking for fighting for your freedoms.
2. Who is just sitting around?!?! I have been to NYC twice, Washington DC twice, LA five times, San Francisco once, and have spent hundreds of hours organizing with groups, giving speeches, and calling my representatives. I have friends being shot at so Bush can save face now that we all know that every reason gave for this war was unfounded and false. I have also purchased round trip tickets for NYC (Aug 27-Sept 4) for the Republican National Convention to stand with my fellow Americans (and people of the world) against this terrorist government. So, again, who is just sitting around?
3. What do you know about integrity? Ever read the declaration of independence? It says that people have certain inalienable rights, this means that these rights are ours by the fact of our being human, and if ANY government tries to take them from ANY person, the government is illegitimate and can not be allowed to rule. How does American integrity fit into the concentration camp in Cuba or Americans and foreigners being held indefinitely without trial? You, my friend, are the biggest danger to American Integrity!

Let Them Go

John FLIPflop 28.Apr.2004 18:42

Let these little weasles go to Canada. A third world country deserves little punks like this. Why would we want cowrads who would piss their pants in combat, let the little cowards go!

Why did they join the army?

James Norman 28.Apr.2004 21:08

What did they think when they joined the army? did they think it was just a social club or a way to meet men? I think they are too dumb for the military and should say up north, maybe the cold will do them some good.

Have a Nice Life....

Me 29.Apr.2004 00:29

Blow all them ragheads to hell. I don't know about you, but I am tired of paying $2.00/Gallon to fill up my H2. I say turn the middle east into a parking lot. Kill 'em all and let Allah sort them out.

Any of you self hating so-called American left wing idiots willing to leave the country? Didn't think so. Not one of you would give up your cushy American life that so many brave young men and women are protecting at this very moment. It is easier to fly around the country to protest, and call that action. Nevermind the fact that you live in a country that you are ALLOWED to protest because not every soldier is a coward like these two idiots. What kind of idiot joins the MILITARY voluntarily, then decides to run away at the first sign of conflict? These two jokers just wanted to make some easy money for a couple years, get a nice new ride, throw some 22" rims on that nice new ride. Guess that college money isn't coming after all.... eh?

I hope these two VOLUNTEERS enjoy the rest of their lives in Canada, we don't need cowards like that here. If our military was made up of cowards such as this, we would all be speaking German right now, not to mention, everyone would have blonde hair and fair skin.


Losers.

Please leave America now!

The Critic 29.Apr.2004 02:10

I'm so sick & tired of the LIE-BERAL TRAITOR JERKWADS in this country that would rather side with the ENEMY instead of supporting America. If you people hate America so much, just leave! This goes for you too, HASAN! If you are in America, leave, because you are not welcome here. If you are not here, don't bother coming here for the same reason. If you are in one of our war zones, may a bomb hit your mud hut YOU BASTARD!

American Nazis scream and cry

hasan akbar 29.Apr.2004 08:23

The comments by Shaefer and other American Nazis here are the most damning evidence that America is a fascist nation through and through.

The only defense you have is to whine about how your American Empire is so hated around the world.

You Americans are much like Nazis whining about how much the world hated the Third Reich.

Your America is hated because you do not stand for democracy, freedom, or any other lie you tell yourselves. You never did and you will never will.

Your America is hated because you stand for Western domination and capitalist exploitation of the rest of the world--particularly the non white and Third World.

As for bombs, critic, you best be watching your own back, as every bomb that America has dropped around the world will be dropped on your murderous American head with payback to spare.

The sooner that the American Evil Empire is driven off this planet, the sooner the rest of the world will be free of the malevolent evil known as the American nation state.

Shut up or leave!

jaymeg2 29.Apr.2004 13:44

All of you whining idiots out there who hate America, listen up. If you are in America and you don't like it - pack your bags and leave! No one is keeping you here - in fact, we don't want morons like you here, anyway. If you can't appreciate this nation, go away. Love it or leave it, pal. If you aren't in America and saying these foolish things - SHUT UP! What business is it of yours, anyway? Go on about your pathetic existence in your "great country" - I'll continue in my wonderful existence in the greatest country on earth. Actually, if I were you, I would hope I was wrong about us being an Empire aggressively expanding because your pathetic little nation could be next - none of you stand a chance against us anyway. If what you say is true, then why haven't we attacked Canada or Mexico - our own neighbors? Neither country could even hope to beat us. But we don't attack them and we won't - even your stupid little country is safe. We're not an Empire and we're not aggressively expanding - history points that out. How short your memory is - the tide of war in the two World Wars turned ONLY after we got involved. If we hadn't become involved in WWII, the whole world would be speaking either German or Japenese. And to call this war in Iraq "illegal" shows how ignorant you really are. Who decides if it is illegal? Certainly not your pathetic little country. The UN? How quickly we forget that the US was only trying to enforce a UN Security Resolution that was passed against Iraq - one that they didn't have the testicular fortitude to enforce themselves because of the whining of the idiots from France, Germany and Russia. The UN lost any credibility they had and they are useless. And since when does a Sovereign nation like the US need any one's permission to do anything - much less defend itself (which is clearly what we were and are currently doing)? You people remind me of the little yapping ankle-biter dogs - they might be cute, but don't count on them to help you in time of need. And as for those spinless pussies who ran to Canada - they should be dragged back here and tried for treason - if found guilty (which they would be), they should be shot. You idiots on here call them brave and practically worship them. Last I checked, brave is not tucking your tail and running like a scared little girl at the first sign of trouble. Brave is the men and women who are giving their lives so idiot Americans like the ones on this board can run their stupid mouths when they want (not all Americans are idiots - in fact, a vast majority aren't. Thankfully, most Americans are decent people who love this country and understand the sacrifice that our soldiers are making for us). So, to recap - if you are from another country and are just against America - you are nothing to us and your pitiful little country is of no consequence in so far that we should listen to you on any matter of our national security. If you are in America and doing this - shame on you - you don't deserve to live here and enjoy the good of this nation - either shut up or leave!

To Hasan - the spinless maggot

jaymeg2 29.Apr.2004 15:00

Contrary to what you may believe in your pathetic little world, not all the world hates us. Many countries are where they are today (in a good sens'e) because of us and they are very thankful - unlike trash like yourself. Your level of hatred for our country is amazing. What have we ever done to you? Where are you from anyway? It's because of ignorant morons like you that over 2,000 American citizens (innocent citizens - not that that means much to terrorists who would kill a child as easily as a soldier) were murdered on September 11, 2001. It's because idiots like you that Guantamo Bay is populated with other idiots like you. They have more room there - they've got a nice room all picked out for you. Some day, they'll come and take you there and you can visit with the other Islamic "Holy Warriors" that are there. I'm sure you have had no problem enjoying any of the good things you have because of us - even though you obviously are in league with the likes of Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. It is obvious that you think that America is indeed the "Great White Satan". Well, time's ticking, pal! Your brothers in arms are hiding in caves like the scared little girlies that they are while idiots like you cheer them and practically worship them. Terrorists are less than low - they are not even human. You are counted in that group - congratulations, dummy! Why don't you go join Hamas and actually do something instead of just talking about it. You don't because you only want to talk tough - in reality, you're a spinless maggot who doesn't have the guts to do anything. At least the Hamas idiots are doing something for what they believe in - as sad and pathetic as that belief is - unlike people like you who are even more sad and pathetic than they are. The world is a worse place with you here if your attitude is going to continue as it is right now - you represent all that is wrong with the world. Lucky for you, we actually do care about innocent people and do all we can to avoid any of them being killed. But, when you have idiots that use hospitals and schools as a shield, they cause innocent people to die. So, unless you're around the other fools who believe as you do, you are safe. You can continue your sad little life whining and complaining. And, one more thing - don't threaten us. Do you really think we're scared of you or anyone else? I hate to burst your bubble, but we're not. Sucks to be you!!

To Jaymeg, the AmeriNazi scum

hasan akbar 01.May.2004 10:04



Boy, your American Empire is the true terrorist on this planet.

Everything your America stands for and believes in is a bloodstained Lie. It always has been. And it always will be.

You Americans are the true Nazis in everything but name. No amount of your pathetic propaganda about the phony "War on Terrorism" nor your rhetoric about former American intelligence assets like USAma bin laden or Saddam Hussein can protect your America now.

Here is an example of what your America stands for...

 http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

Own up to it. These atrocities are on you and your nation, punk.

And make no mistake, justice is coming for you and your America.

red blood spills for the "blue blood's" black magic

spiro 01.May.2004 18:43

The American public has no reason to support a war that is for the sole purpose of making the rich richer. Invade a foreign country with the sole pupose of stealing the natural resources of that country. At the same time brain wash your own country into thinking that the invasion is justified. I support these young men who decided to oppose the war by not offering their bodies and minds to a mindless venture. I call out to all of the American soldiers to really think over why they are there. This war would not exist if the people on the ground refused to fight. A good example is the Russian soldiers who during WWII laid down their weapons and returned home to tend their farms. Who benefits when a war like this is won? The super rich they are the ones who get a new helicopter next year. If the soldiers don't get shot they have a long battle ahead of them trying to get the monies promised to them. There is no reason to be a pawn. Those with great wealth must be made to give up their life of indulgences and let the rest of the world live in peace!!!!!

...

Anon 01.May.2004 21:30

Hasan,
First off, those responsible for abuse of prisoners are being punished in accordance with the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). Secondly, Saddam Hussein and his regime tortured prisoners on a regular, systematic basis, without fear of retribution.
I don't know about your third world country, but in the US gas prices haven't gone down since we invaded Iraq, they've gone up. So much for the cheap oil theory, huh? Also, if we only wanted oil, we could have easily stopped enforcing the sanction against Iraq, instead of invading them. We chose to remove a brutal dictator from power instead of rewarding him. Sorry if that offends your sensibilities. I know that the Arab world is a paragon of democracy, what with nations such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, et al, where human and women's rights are held above all else.

There is absolutely no basis for comparing America to Nazi Germany. Only a person with a limited intellect would make that claim.

As for wishing death and destruction down on innocent people, I'm sure you were among those cheering in the streets when 2750 innocent Americans were killed on September 11, 2001. Way to hold the moral high ground, buddy. We could have easily nuked Afghanistan and moved on. We chose instead to conduct a limited war, taking as many steps as possible to minimize collateral damage. Where is the comparison to Nazi Germany there, buddy?

To Hasan Akbar

The Critic 02.May.2004 01:19

I see you are still talking out of your ass, you product of camel rectal birth. Don't go away mad, just go away. Please do us a favor & get captured by American troops. I'm sure that once they get to know you as we all have, you'll get the treatment that you deserve. Who knows, your picture might even end up on the Memory Hole for all to enjoy! Piss off!

Price I'm willing to pay.

Summerian 02.May.2004 13:17

Well, well, well.
looks like some americans are getting scared.
"We aren't all bad."
That might be. But that's not something that can be considered. Sorry
As a Swede, the death of all americans to whipe out the military industrial complex, is a price I'm willing to pay.
Later dudes.

To the Critic

hasan akbar 03.May.2004 10:06

You Americans have a fascination with anal penetration don't you. Must be what your Trailer Park daddy did to you every night when you were a boy. Sounds to me like you are begging for an ass raping yourself--the same as what your stormtroopers deserve and will receive, with extreme prejudice.

In fact, your American stormtroopers had better watch that they aren't captured themselves, as they will be on the receiving end of all the pain and immseration that they have inflicted on the Iraqi people.

Don't be surprised to see pictures of your fellow American brownshirts on the Memory hole or other internet sites someday. Better yet, bring your ass to the Middle East, and see if you don't get yourself captured and subjected to some well deserved payback yourself.

how sad

farrahsuegal 03.May.2004 17:11

How sad, the hate on this page. There is hate from warmongers and hate from Akbar, and people who reveal their own fear to live in this hateful world by calling people with a conscience cowards. The only way any of this will ever be resolved is if we view ourselves as global citizens and not as dutiful robots of the countries our ancestors have sectioned us into.

Oil-for-food

Samuel 03.May.2004 22:05

Let's not forget that the "oil-for-food" scandal "vouchers'" list includes prominent political figures from countries that opposed the war most. It is utter hypocrisy to claim that the Bush administration fought this war for oil when it was your counter parts in the left wing (Russia, Germany, France, and the U.N, just to name a few) who benefited from this scandal. Now we see why they opposed the war.

Hypocrisy

El Boricua 03.May.2004 22:20

"...an illegal war that violates basic norms of human decency." Vermin Hussein was the ultimate violator of human decency, how hypocritical the remark, yet not suprising coming from a socialist. These kids are cowards that probably joined the military for educational benefits. Yet upon arriving to boot camp they quickly realized that the military does not exist to provide education, it's sole purpose is to protect this country at all costs. After 9/11, we cannot afford to sit around and wait for those who hate America (which by the way include the socialist/communist left in our country) to attack and kill thousands more before we decide to take action. America is currently fortunate enough to have a leader that is willing to risk his re-election to protect America. The last thing this country needs now is John Kerry bowing down to the United Nations (leaders of the oil-for-food scandal and miserable failures in Kosovo), waiting for approval from them to protect the citizens of America.

RE: ironic (josh)

fab (belgium) 05.May.2004 12:23

just want to remind you something: after WW2, A LOT of "ex-" nazi flew to USA, because YOU invited them! us government offered asylum (obviously in secret) to hundreds of assholes... so dont come and say you were there to fight nazi, because of there ideas, you entered in war because they became a little bit too powerfull and you were afraid for your ass... (remember V2 missiles..?)... dont come and say you have only a little bit of morality and ethic because you dont even know what it means...
and stop talking about history, when you are so disinformed about it,..

revulsing stomach

fab (belgium) 05.May.2004 12:33

you american only make me want to puke

re: Ethan Renard (amerinazis)

fab (belgium) 05.May.2004 12:47

america is like it is because the citizens made it like this. if you want to blame somedoby, begin with yourself, take your responsability for being an american and made US like it is.

obviously, in a group, everybody is not exactly the same, there is a distribution of all parameters that describe the group, as well as the way of thinking, this are statistics. But in the case of the US, the majority is what we know, the country acts like an international dictatorship (military, economiacly, with what you call your "culture"... this make me laugh...) because the mean of all this ways of thinking wants that.

you conscious should be VERY heavy if you dont like what your country does and your are from that country. As I have a very bad conscious for being a human and see what we are capable of... i dont consider myself out of this. you cant hide behind the mass effect, or telling responsability is for someone else... this is cowardice and blindness

to the critic

fab (belgium) 05.May.2004 12:57

how can somebody write such a thing....
dont you remember history??? two bombs weren't enough and already too much???
did you get informed of what a nuclear bomb means before you wrote such a thing, or are you really SOOOOOO ignorant????
i am really going to puke now...

Absolutely Pathetic

Eliott 05.May.2004 18:07


What the fuck is wrong with you Neanderthals? You have the audacity to label America as a Fascist Nation. The last time I checked fascism, just like communism didn't encourage Free Press, Free Speech, Free Worship, and a myriad of other rights we enjoy in this nation. Plus America did defeat Nazism because Hitler would have conquered the Soviet Union if we hadn't stepped in. When you talk about the Soviet Union stopping Americanism, ask your self: Did the Soviet Union encourage: Free Press, Free Speech, Free Worship or any other individual rights? No, in fact they have a mile-long record of human rights abuses but were the fascists? Get a fucking Clue.

As for the Israeli-Palestine conflict, you would rather Israel not defend themselves against the countless suicide bombings that have become part of their daily life. The main point I want to make is: Israel supports the American Ideals and attacks Palestinian militants not innocent civilians and the Palestinians attack innocent civilians on buses and schools.

And the two deserters need to stay in Canada for the rest of their lives. If they ever come back they should be tried and sentenced to jail. They are pathetic creatures because they don't hold anything in such high regard that they wouldn't die for it. Even if you don't agree with the war, what those two guys did is a smack in the face to Lady Liberty and I hope they lead very unfulfilling lives.

If you people have some many problems with democracy and our many Freedoms you need to leave the country because radical Liberals like you are leading us towards fascists government. A nation that promotes socialism, secularism, and the abolishment of our American Rights. I will concede one point you bastards; America needs to stay out of other people's business. Most countries are ungrateful for anything we have ever done for them. I hope when we finish business in Iraq, we tell the world to Kiss our Ass and revert back to the Isolation of the 20's with few exceptions. For all you anti-American assholes quit whining and leave the damn country already. Go to China and see how freedom loving the communist are, or go to Iran where they cut your hand of for stealing and stone people to death for a worshipping another deity.

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-- John Stuart Mill

Losers, Simply Losers

AJH 06.May.2004 03:31

Progressives (read liberals) are so enlightened...Why is this concept so difficult to grasp? Why would these spineless cowards join the military in the first place? Were they coerced? Forced to enlist? Has the draft been reinstated? Is it not true that the Army has always been about going to strange lands, meeting new people, and killing them? Hence the term “armed” in Armed Forces. Did they not comprehend that concept while in Basic Training? Did they not understand the possibility of going to war while in the employ of the military? After all, that is what the military does.

Nope, these boys wanted a free ride, the government dole… Let the “man” pay for their benefits and education and bail out on them in 4 years with no regard for responsibility…It doesn’t work that way…They are wrong to be pitied or held up as heroes for standing up to the establishment. They are what they are: deserters, cowards………..

Remember, they joined the Army. The Army did not join them.

Belgian Comment

Thokke Festjens 13.May.2004 14:48

All decissions in the western part of this world are taken by leaders who are "democraticaly elected". They should stand for what the majority wants. in reality this seems quite the opposite sometimes.
For this, people who are in service of a regime which is democraticaly elected, should have the rigth to refuse orders when they concider these as total nonsense.
I am a firefighter back here in Belgium and I am lucky to have a wonderfull and intelligent staff that cares for it's employees. They give every firefighter the right to refuse an order when considered unsafe or stupid. I am sure this way of working has already saved many lives!
I want to pull this line to both the american soldiers... Why should they risk diying for a goal they do not agree with? Why should they make murderers of themselves for a war that can not be won?
Why should they help creating anger, fear and death in the souls of Iraki people? To get people that angry they pack themselves with bombs to go out and kill thousands of amerikans and europeans because it's the only thing they've got left to stand for?
why should we bother bringing our people in un-necessarely danger and fear for terrorist bombings?

My special thoughts for all people all over the world: Stop making terrorists with unnecesarrely wars. Make yourselves a safer home by being peacefull. Stand for your rights and your own thoughts, but accept those of others

There's a difference between "defense" and "aggression"

An average American 14.May.2004 15:18

I'm proud to be an American, and totally disgusted at the actions of our current government. Hopefully, we will be able to effect change this November.

I come from a family with a long history of serving this country, and my roots go back to before the revolution. Many of my family members have served our military, some in war (WWII), some in peace. None of us would hesitate to defend this country if we were asked to. However, there is a huge difference between defending your country and invading another one for false reasons. None of us (in my family) support that, and we are all working for change.

To those of my countrymen who whine about liberals or pregressives, I say to you that you are not true Americans. Take a look at the bunch who helped found this country, and you would probably want them all in jail. America is a nation that was formed to respect differences and that's what has made us strong - we took the people nobody wanted, or that didn't fit in, and we built a strong nation. Now we have a bunch of scared sheep who want to play schoolyard bullies, and the true Americans will not stand for that. Freedom is a right and responsibility, and it's time to fix our image and show once again what we really stand for.

response to Bauer

Leela 04.Jun.2004 19:14

Dear Mr. Bauer
Before you judge other people and comment about their spelling and grammar skills, you should take a good look at your own writing. By the way "Mr. Learned," you misspelled the word "intelligence." (So much for your opinion and superior spelling and grammar skills!)

Angry hassan akbar

Leela 04.Jun.2004 19:32

Poor little evil Akbar trying so hard to assert his ugly little terrorist self to no avail. The United States is currently defeating you and your terrorist friends. You really should be careful who you threaten. By the way what country are you from? You are a strange combination.

Poor little Leela

hasan akbar 10.Jun.2004 11:22



American apologists like little leela and Elliot are throwing a predictable hissy fit about the fact their Fascist American Empire is being called out for what it is.

Elliot, if you want to understand what fascism is, look in the mirror. Your American Empire fits its to a t. AS Mussolini himself said, fascism is CORPORATISM, the domination of the state by corporations. Sound like your America? As for a free press, America doesn't have a free press. You have a capitalist controlled media that dutifully repeats every propaganda slogan and storyline the Pentagon tells them them to. Go ask all of your in-bedded reporters about a 'free press.'

And little leela, in case you hadn't figured out yet, the only terrorists being capped and killed on this planet are the human scum known as American soldiers. And you can be sure, payback is a helluva bitch for your beloved American Nazi stormtroopers in Iraq.

BTW, I am from America, little leela. Where the hell are you from?

Non-military seeking asylum

MJ Johnston 14.Aug.2006 06:00

My family and I are seriously gathering information on the process of seeking politiacl asylum in a European or South American Country. I witnessed events so frightening here in the US I cannot no longer support what I see happening by being a passive observer, and activism has resulted in no results. I wish to seek asylum outside of the US. Are there nations wiling to accept us?
Once we lose our right to dissention, lose our First Anendment rights to the degree to which is eveident where I live. I wish to be a part of the solution, rather then part of the problem, and believe my most effective work can be accolplished outside our borders. Please pass on any info available. Thank you, for myself and my children and my grandchildren.